Trade port allocation

[Cowabunga73]

Playing as Spain, early game, all import trade from Cuban & Hispaniolan colonies comes into Cartagena, Home Region's sole trading port (on Mediterranean Coast); all maritime export trade to Genoa and New Spain (South & Central America) similarly goes out from Cartagena.

While at war with Portugal I occupied Porto, their sole trading port, with a Sixth Rate to put pressure on them and deny an allied British expeditionary force a harbour to disembark, thus burning the port.

The b*ggers sailed straight past and headed for Gibraltar leaving me to capture Lisbon and destroy Portugal as a faction on the next turn. Now all my import trade is gone and the in game tool tip on the trade screen refers to blockading.

This isn't the case, none of my ports in Caribbean or Home Theatre are blockaded, none of my trade lanes (all one of them) are being pirated and the only answer seems to be the AI has automatically routed all my Caribbean trade away from Cartagena to Porto as the point of entry but Porto is out of commission.

I follow the logic of routing trade to the nearest available port but why would the AI insist on this if the port is out of commission and Cartagena is available as an alternative? Indeed all my export trade, at present merely manufactured goods, continues to go out from Cartagena to both Genoa and New Spain so only imports seem caught by this restriction.

I can and will of course repair the port next turn but if the British had landed that expeditionary force and occupied the port or if the Royal Navy blockade it in future will I really lose all my imports even if Cartagena is available and merrily exporting? Or is this just a glitch that the game will clear when I hit end turn?

The idea that Spain's imports can be denied by blockading or damaging a newly-acquired Portuguese port while Spain's main trading port is fully operational seems decidedly odd and suggests a simple way for Britain / UP / Other to wreck Spain's economy.

[Bfloo]

If you are at war with England, and they have a fleet on or by Gibraltar I think it can block the Spanish trade.

I've had access to the med blocked on me from there, as England and Prussia. I never really paid much attention to how my trade routes are affected.

[pgeerkens]

This is usual and expected game behaviour. You would prefer otherwise - but another player, in a different campaign circumstance, might not. So the game engine applies simple rules easy to program accurately.

If you are worried about Porto being blocked in future, then raze it and replace with a fishing port.

[HazardHawk]

Those dotted green yellow and red lines? That is your trade routes between ports. The most common early game problem are with the pirates and North Africa. Both earn money raiding trade lanes. Then there are the regular factions which tend to be more targeted than random.

Mouse over the dotted line, dont remember but dont think you need a fleet selected, and it tells you the money on that section of the trade lane being earned.

When an enemy fleet parks on that line, it disables everything on that particular route. The closer to your primary port, the more financial damages (usually).

Pinch points are Gibraltar and up at Anatolia meeting central Europe

Primary faction raiding trade lanes is usually done in and out of the way, not usually seen, open water or map edge trade lane raid.

Ports, your primary trade port is the most significant. Other ports, trade is rerouted for a loss, but primary port cuts trade off in majority (you still have land trade as long as it is not using that port).

Some raiding is going to happen. Take that into account and it will likely be one turn at a time.

Priority, maintain your primary original first trade port as if it is your personal FT Knox. To prevent incidental damages, leave a single cheap low class unit as garrison so they only blockade and do not damage.

Keep enemies as far from your primary port as you can.
Keep the primary high value trade lanes open.

I dont play the naval game other than usually one major fleet to an area for dealing with trade raiding and blockades.

[Cowabunga73]

Originally posted by Bfloo:

If you are at war with England, and they have a fleet on or by Gibraltar I think it can block the Spanish trade.

I've had access to the med blocked on me from there, as England and Prussia.

I though this at first but all my export trade to New Spain goes from Cartagena through the straits of Gibraltar just fine so the route isn't being blocked, it's just the imported raw materials are being pointed to a port that can't receive them (Porto). The English fleet aren't actually blocking the straits as I have a fleet parked right there to intercept them if they try to disembark the expeditionary force at Cadiz or Gibraltar where I assume they are headed.

Originally posted by pgeerkens:

This is usual and expected game behaviour. You would prefer otherwise - but another player, in a different campaign circumstance, might not. So the game engine applies simple rules easy to program accurately.

If you are worried about Porto being blocked in future, then raze it and replace with a fishing port.

I understand pointing trade to the nearest port, not so much the decision to keep pointing it there even if the port is damaged and there is an alternative, an alternative that was in fact receiving that trade throughout the campaign until now. I can't imagine anyone wants to sacrifice most of their trade income for no reason. A "check if port is damaged / occupied / blockaded and if yes search for alternative port and send traffic there" script would make more sense to me than ships throwing their cargo overboard (*grumbles to self about lack of initiative in merchant shipping community*).

Porto is much easier for hostile Britain or UP to reach and blockade but I don't like the idea of razing it as I'll want additional ports as I increase trade partners / colonies. It was more an observation on what strategy I would adopt in their place knowing this about Spain's Caribbean trade.

Originally posted by HazardHawk:

When an enemy fleet parks on that line, it disables everything on that particular route. The closer to your primary port, the more financial damages (usually).

Pinch points are Gibraltar and up at Anatolia meeting central Europe

Yeah, there's no fleet parked on the trade lane and the trade screen doesn't show the piracy icon, just the x for blockade and the blockade tool tip. Manufactured exports go transatlantic through the straits of Gibraltar at full value it's just there is now a "0" value between the Caribbean and Porto. So I'm ruling out piracy unless something weird is happening.

Thanks all for suggestions and information.

Cheers

[pgeerkens]

Originally posted by Cowabunga73:

...

Originally posted by pgeerkens:

This is usual and expected game behaviour. You would prefer otherwise - but another player, in a different campaign circumstance, might not. So the game engine applies simple rules easy to program accurately.

If you are worried about Porto being blocked in future, then raze it and replace with a fishing port.

I understand pointing trade to the nearest port, not so much the decision to keep pointing it there even if the port is damaged and there is an alternative, an alternative that was in fact receiving that trade throughout the campaign until now. I can't imagine anyone wants to sacrifice most of their trade income for no reason. A "check if port is damaged / occupied / blockaded and if yes search for alternative port and send traffic there" script would make more sense to me than ships throwing their cargo overboard (*grumbles to self about lack of initiative in merchant shipping community*).

Porto is much easier for hostile Britain or UP to reach and blockade but I don't like the idea of razing it as I'll want additional ports as I increase trade partners / colonies. It was more an observation on what strategy I would adopt in their place knowing this about Spain's Caribbean trade.

...

Thanks all for suggestions and information.

Cheers

As Spain, with all those Caribbean Trade Goods coming in, the only Trade partners you should be seeking are France, Venice, Italian States, New Spain (while they last) ; and, eventually, a Barbary Pirates Protectorate to replace all the rest as you conquer them. Getting others simply increases risk of losing the Trade Goods value to blockade for a much smaller Other Goods value.

[Big Moustache]

Nah, make trade agreements with everyone you can. Once you have half the American theater and control several other trade node theaters, you can make it your monopoly. I even trade with the enemies of my allies, cash is much better/bigger than a fickle friendship that can flip on you over the most ridiculous reasons (TW diplomacy). The only thing that can keep the peace is raw military power, they all must fear you!

For switching where your trade comes in at home: simply destroy all existing trade ports and build one where you want it. Best to have it on your west coast as Spain. No crappy barbarian single galley blockades every turn if you not have it guarded by expensive ships.

Your goal is to dominate world trade. And use military fleets to guard every theater. Once you kicked all the other nations out, make for generous peace offer and than start lucrative trade with them. Be greedy!! Be rich your prestige will skyrocket.

Trade goods have a value that can increase or decrease depending on demand and quantity.
Do not over stack on trade nodes. I put a galleon and 4 indiamans on every node as Spain, no more no less. This kinda balances the prices into maxed out profits

[swmackin]

You need to watch that trade goods coming out of Cuba and Hispaniola.

Cuba has very productive plantations which are capable of producing more good than the initial port can handle. Once you reach the export limit on that port don't waste money upgrading plantations until you can upgrade your port and get the second trade port.

With Hispaniola I have learned to never build a trade port in San Juan (modern day Puerto Rico) when it emerges. If you build a port in San Juan it will cause all the trade from Cuba, Mexico (New Spain), and any other Gulf of Mexico ports to route through Cuba, then into the Port-de-Paix port on Hispaniola and out the San Juan port.

This means if any of the ports in Cuba or Hispaniola are blocked it also blocks all trade from the Gulf of Mexico.

The Hispaniola plantations have poor yield anyway. As such, they should be developed last and the single port in Port-de-Paix can handle the exports until the third port appears.

[pgeerkens]

Originally posted by swmackin:

Cuba has very productive plantations which are capable of producing more good than the initial port can handle. Once you reach the export limit on that port don't waste money upgrading plantations until you can upgrade your port and get the second trade port.

Capacity is maxed from Cuba at campaign start:

• Trade port: capacity 30 to 32 units;
  
• Commercial Port: capacity 60 to 64 units;
  
• Commercial Basin: Port capacity 120 to 126 units; and
  
• Global Trading Company: Port capacity 240 to 248 (?) units.

I have been unable to discern exactly what causes the occasional extra few units of capacity, except that it does seem to be region based.

Cuba starts all campaigns with Trade Good production of 86 (2 * 30 Tobacco and 1 * 26 Sugar), well above even the 60 unit capacity of a Commercial Port, though it starts with only a Trade Port. This makes the upgrade of Santiago de Cuba to a Commercial Port the very best economic investment in the whole game. It will typically pay for itself in 11 turns (3 + 2500/(30*11) = 10.6 turns), including construction time. Few other investments achieve payback in less than about 20 turns, and above 2nd level most can take in excess of 40 turns.

Originally posted by swmackin:

With Hispaniola I have learned to never build a trade port in San Juan (modern day Puerto Rico) when it emerges. If you build a port in San Juan it will cause all the trade from Cuba, Mexico (New Spain), and any other Gulf of Mexico ports to route through Cuba, then into the Port-de-Paix port on Hispaniola and out the San Juan port.

This means if any of the ports in Cuba or Hispaniola are blocked it also blocks all trade from the Gulf of Mexico.

Astute observation. As Hispaniola has 2 more villages capable of becoming economic centres, building a Fishing Port in San Juan is definitely called for.

[Cowabunga73]

swmackin, pgeerkens

Good observations, thank you both.

I had seen Cuba's plantation potential but limited export capacity so made researching tech to upgrade the existing port the priority rather than aiming for the second port (the second port, Holguin?, not developing until after the ill-named inland village, Puerto Principe - CA humour I guess). Even in 1729 while the main port is a Commercial Basin Holguin is years away from triggering.

For Hispaniola, I slow-pedalled the island as yields are low and I didn't want to drive tobacco prices down (sugar is already at 13, tobacco at 17, cotton and ivory 19 and spices 26). I was initially unclear as to whether both Hispaniolan islands needed a port to trade their goods so I did put a trading port in both coastal settlements, as much for region wealth as export. Rationale being there is 0 town wealth and very low tax raising potential in Hispaniola so better to treat it as a plantation / export economy rather than prioritise the remaining village(s?).

And I did indeed notice that though the export trade flows merrily from Texas, Cuba, Jamaica and the Bahamas into one stream something weird happens to it at Hispaniola with the bulk of the export trade across the Atlantic seeming to then disappear into Hispaniola and re-emerge from the smaller island (Puerto Rico). I'm aware of the dangers of blockade but I've pretty much got the edge in naval terms in the Caribbean and Atlantic / Mediterranean - Pirates and Barbary Corsairs eliminated, Austria and Russia blockaded in Crimea and Croatia, the Med is entirely friendly, I'm allied with France, I've captured England and eliminated both their Channel squadrons, though, having destroyed the Dutch, I suppose their trade fleets will turn pirate.

I suppose this is when a big British fleet of third rates emerges from the depths of the ocean or the Marathas decide to invade the Caribbean to spoil my party.

Cheers

[pgeerkens]

Originally posted by Cowabunga73:

swmackin, pgeerkens

Good observations, thank you both.

I had seen Cuba's plantation potential but limited export capacity so made researching tech to upgrade the existing port the priority rather than aiming for the second port (the second port, Holguin?, not developing until after the ill-named inland village, Puerto Principe - CA humour I guess). Even in 1729 while the main port is a Commercial Basin Holguin is years away from triggering.

...

Cheers

CA actually got this naming correct. From Wikipedia for Camagüey redirected from Puerto Principe, Cuba

"[Camagüey] was founded as Santa María del Puerto del Príncipe in 1514, by Spanish colonists on the northern coast and moved inland in 1528, to the site of a Taino village named Camagüey. It was one of the seven original settlements (villas) founded in Cuba by the Spanish.
...
Upon Cuba's independence from Spain, in 1898, was when the city and its surrounding province received the current name of Camagüey, as a result of the independence from Spain."

[Cowabunga73]

Originally posted by pgeerkens:

CA actually got this naming correct. From Wikipedia for Camagüey redirected from Puerto Principe, Cuba

"[Camagüey] was founded as Santa María del Puerto del Príncipe in 1514, by Spanish colonists on the northern coast and moved inland in 1528"

I stand corrected. A landlocked "port" sounded right up there with CA's wry humour.

[pgeerkens]

Originally posted by Cowabunga73:

... so I did put a trading port in both coastal settlements, as much for region wealth as export. Rationale being there is 0 town wealth and very low tax raising potential in Hispaniola so better to treat it as a plantation / export economy rather than prioritise the remaining village(s?).

This is a trap set by the game. Regardless of any other settings, the pay back on just a simple Trade Port is always in the range of 70 to 80 turns. Unless you truly intend to not expand for the first 40 plus years, investing in Fishing Ports to speed town development, and troops, is a better use of funds.

The early mid-game (so Admin Cost ~ 10%) quadratic equation for upper-most class tax rate of 10%, and Building Tax Rate of 12%, is
(1/2) * n (n+1) * 1 * (3/4) * 28% - 600 = 0
which upon clearing denominators and expanding becomes
21 * n(n+1) - 120000 = 0
and then, since the linear term makes a very small contribution,
n ~ sqrt(120000/21) ~ sqrt(5714) ~ 76.

Note that upgrading the port doesn't help. The payback on a Commercial Port is about the same again, for a total of about 150 turns; then another 150 turns for a Commercial Basin and a further 300 turns for a Global Trading Company. These economic "investments" are just mirages; actual economic growth occurs predominantly from other effects, mostly technology research.

[Bfloo]

Originally posted by pgeerkens:

Originally posted by Cowabunga73:

... so I did put a trading port in both coastal settlements, as much for region wealth as export. Rationale being there is 0 town wealth and very low tax raising potential in Hispaniola so better to treat it as a plantation / export economy rather than prioritise the remaining village(s?).

This is a trap set by the game. Regardless of any other settings, the pay back on just a simple Trade Port is always in the range of 70 to 80 turns. Unless you truly intend to not expand for the first 40 plus years, investing in Fishing Ports to speed town development, and troops, is a better use of funds.

The early mid-game (so Admin Cost ~ 10%) quadratic equation for upper-most class tax rate of 10%, and Building Tax Rate of 12%, is
(1/2) * n (n+1) * 1 * (3/4) * 28% - 600 = 0
which upon clearing denominators and expanding becomes
21 * n(n+1) - 120000 = 0
and then, since the linear term makes a very small contribution,
n ~ sqrt(120000/21) ~ sqrt(5714) ~ 76.

Note that upgrading the port doesn't help. The payback on a Commercial Port is about the same again, for a total of about 150 turns; then another 150 turns for a Commercial Basin and a further 300 turns for a Global Trading Company. These economic "investments" are just mirages; actual economic growth occurs predominantly from other effects, mostly technology research.

I'll take your word for it on the math, but how does it effect income per turn? I end up with such a late game surplus, what I pay to upgrade my trade ports is an after thought. I am usually at that surplus by the time I do.... Never mind, I just proved your point

[Cowabunga73]

Originally posted by pgeerkens:

This is a trap set by the game. Regardless of any other settings, the pay back on just a simple Trade Port is always in the range of 70 to 80 turns. Unless you truly intend to not expand for the first 40 plus years, investing in Fishing Ports to speed town development, and troops, is a better use of funds.

I'll believe you without the maths :P

I think instinctively, or maybe from playing other total wars, I want port buildings to be "doing stuff", whether that's trading or producing warships. There is the third option but pop. growth seems so underwhelming given all the farms we also need to build and all the farming tech we need to research. I get it - without the agrarian revolution we wouldn't have had the industrial either - but I was hedging for export from a plantation economy.

I completed the grand campaign in 1738 so additional growth or prioritising more towns (above enough for some industrial buildings, functional ports or very occasional universities / inns) seemed unnecessary. Perhaps on higher difficulties (this was normal) this would be essential but I rarely built an industrial building to level 3 or an export / colonial port to level 2 and the economy was fine, even as an absolute monarchy.

And I hear you about the length of payback periods. I wince every time I calculate how long I have to wait before any building starts paying it's way. Earlier total wars might do this in a few turns but with the (notional) idea that a campaign will last 100 years and all the research bonuses that come with time it feels like they really want you to see it as a long term investment.

Problem seems (commenting after 3 campaigns, one short, two grand) that really just makes trade king: your export of manufactured goods, along with colonial or trade node raw materials, plus trade route bonuses and the tax on the raw goods in the colonies becomes a juggernaut. I was making 20k from trade by the 1730s (7 trade partners) plus any tax on the raw goods produced in the colonies.

I suppose if you play on to 1770 or 1800 the industrial economy and taxes trump trade - and if you conquer more of the map your trade partners likely dry up - but trade seems to offer a huge advantage to maritime powers, at least early game.

[swmackin]

Originally posted by pgeerkens:

Originally posted by swmackin:

Cuba has very productive plantations which are capable of producing more good than the initial port can handle. Once you reach the export limit on that port don't waste money upgrading plantations until you can upgrade your port and get the second trade port.

Capacity is maxed from Cuba at campaign start:

• Trade port: capacity 30 to 32 units;
  
• Commercial Port: capacity 60 to 64 units;
  
• Commercial Basin: Port capacity 120 to 126 units; and
  
• Global Trading Company: Port capacity 240 to 248 (?) units.

I have been unable to discern exactly what causes the occasional extra few units of capacity, except that it does seem to be region based.

Cuba starts all campaigns with Trade Good production of 86 (2 * 30 Tobacco and 1 * 26 Sugar), well above even the 60 unit capacity of a Commercial Port, though it starts with only a Trade Port. This makes the upgrade of Santiago de Cuba to a Commercial Port the very best economic investment in the whole game. It will typically pay for itself in 11 turns (3 + 2500/(30*11) = 10.6 turns), including construction time. Few other investments achieve payback in less than about 20 turns, and above 2nd level most can take in excess of 40 turns.

Originally posted by swmackin:

With Hispaniola I have learned to never build a trade port in San Juan (modern day Puerto Rico) when it emerges. If you build a port in San Juan it will cause all the trade from Cuba, Mexico (New Spain), and any other Gulf of Mexico ports to route through Cuba, then into the Port-de-Paix port on Hispaniola and out the San Juan port.

This means if any of the ports in Cuba or Hispaniola are blocked it also blocks all trade from the Gulf of Mexico.

Astute observation. As Hispaniola has 2 more villages capable of becoming economic centres, building a Fishing Port in San Juan is definitely called for.

Thanks for the info!

I played as Spain recently and just exempted Cuba from taxes until the second port appeared. The real money is in the trade goods there.

I remember back when I was brand new playing ETW I thought Hispaniola was insanely wealthy when I saw all the trade coming out of San Juan. Then I looked closer at what was really happening.

Usually I build a naval port in San Juan. I only build a fishing port if I am trying to get population to grow faster. Sweden is a good place for them as they end up with a lot of ports fast.

Originally posted by Cowabunga73:

Originally posted by pgeerkens:

This is a trap set by the game. Regardless of any other settings, the pay back on just a simple Trade Port is always in the range of 70 to 80 turns. Unless you truly intend to not expand for the first 40 plus years, investing in Fishing Ports to speed town development, and troops, is a better use of funds.

I'll believe you without the maths :P

I think instinctively, or maybe from playing other total wars, I want port buildings to be "doing stuff", whether that's trading or producing warships. There is the third option but pop. growth seems so underwhelming given all the farms we also need to build and all the farming tech we need to research. I get it - without the agrarian revolution we wouldn't have had the industrial either - but I was hedging for export from a plantation economy.

I completed the grand campaign in 1738 so additional growth or prioritising more towns (above enough for some industrial buildings, functional ports or very occasional universities / inns) seemed unnecessary. Perhaps on higher difficulties (this was normal) this would be essential but I rarely built an industrial building to level 3 or an export / colonial port to level 2 and the economy was fine, even as an absolute monarchy.

And I hear you about the length of payback periods. I wince every time I calculate how long I have to wait before any building starts paying it's way. Earlier total wars might do this in a few turns but with the (notional) idea that a campaign will last 100 years and all the research bonuses that come with time it feels like they really want you to see it as a long term investment.

Problem seems (commenting after 3 campaigns, one short, two grand) that really just makes trade king: your export of manufactured goods, along with colonial or trade node raw materials, plus trade route bonuses and the tax on the raw goods in the colonies becomes a juggernaut. I was making 20k from trade by the 1730s (7 trade partners) plus any tax on the raw goods produced in the colonies.

I suppose if you play on to 1770 or 1800 the industrial economy and taxes trump trade - and if you conquer more of the map your trade partners likely dry up - but trade seems to offer a huge advantage to maritime powers, at least early game.

I have always found Spain to be the fastest faction to complete campaign requirements. Sweden is the second fastest, Poland third.

A few tips I forgot for Spain incase you want to play again at a higher level.

-- I always demolish the naval port in the far south at Cadiz, next to Gibraltar and build a trade port there. With the ability to make Galleons a second naval port in the home theatre isn't necessary until you can build drydocks. Also, dockyards and drydocks have a negative impact (industrialization) on the lower class.

-- Sell off Naples, Lombardy and Florida on the first turn. It costs significantly more money to defend these territories than they bring in. You can always go take them back later when you are more wealthy and you don't need Florida to win. The army from Florida can be used to capture Texas. Eventually it is good to sell Flanders too, I just like to keep it for a few turns in case I want to use it to trade for peace with UP.

-- It is good to cause an upper class revolt in Spain when you feel you are stable enough. Side with the rebels, then capture the capital and your horrible King is replaced with a more competent monarch.