How to defeat the mass army Maratha Confederacy generate (Mogul empire in Darth Mode)?

[Mark VI]

The continuous battles with mountains of melee soldiers and countless camel gunners are torture, they just keep routing and keep coming back. In almost every battle on the Indian continent, I have to face an enemy force that is 2:1 of my own. If I left the Indian faction alone, they would have conquered half of Europe with a mass army equipped with superior artillery in less than 15 rounds.

[pgeerkens]

What year is it?

What is your typical full stack composition?

I play vanilla on VH/VH and always take Maratha out before they can get past Anatolia. Facing off against them with stacks typically of

• 1 general;
  
• 2 cavalry;
  
• 2 12 lb long guns;
  
• 4 12 lb howitzers; and
  
• 11 line infantry (or 10 plus a demi-cannon)

I regard them as no more difficult than any European power, and easier than the Prussians for example.

[Mark VI]

I have to admit though I did played this game for some year, I was not very good at it. I don't think this is a problem with army composition. I generally play as Britain and have the precisely the same composition you have, yet both Indian faction seem always have enough money to pile up 2-3 stack of dervish, Hindu warrior with at least 6 camel gunner/ stack to battle me, even I manage to eliminate them in the front line (with great casualty, I have no other methods to deal with the melee troops already rushing in my line of defense ), they just rebuild all the same and generate more in their rear position. (I attempted to send a small skirmish detachment to do the reconnaissance, see if I could sneak one or two cities to relieve the front line, what I found is more troops garrison the area).

[pgeerkens]

Originally posted by Mark VI:

I have to admit though I did played this game for some year, I was not very good at it. I don't think this is a problem with army composition. I generally play as Britain and have the precisely the same composition you have, yet both Indian faction seem always have enough money to pile up 2-3 stack of dervish, Hindu warrior with at least 6 camel gunner/ stack to battle me, even I manage to eliminate them in the front line (with great casualty, I have no other methods to deal with the melee troops already rushing in my line of defense ), they just rebuild all the same and generate more in their rear position. (I attempted to send a small skirmish detachment to do the reconnaissance, see if I could sneak one or two cities to relieve the front line, what I found is more troops garrison the area).

Are you using your navy to cripple their trade and ports? Without trade their Trade Goods are nearly worthless.If you have landed in Southern India with three full stacks and destroyed their navy and ports, their time is numbered. I can then plough through India in 11 or 12 turns; but even taking heavier losses their economy can't compete in a longer war of attrition.

[Bfloo]

When going into India, I usually attack from the south, build the army and navy you think you will need. Then double it and add a few extra reinforcements. Supply lines end up so long, it is hard to reinforce while the Maratha/ Mughals (whoever won their war) will throw stack after stack. If they crush your navy, autoresolve isn't always kind to me, they will whittle your troops away to nothing.

As Prussia, I figured 2 stacks would be enough, but after 3 or 4 attacks, 1 just got ripped apart, and I managed to make a peace deal, keeping 1 Indian city, I think Mysore. I ended up needing 4 stacks, 2 supporting each other to push forward. I had rakes sabotaging away to disrupt their economy, which helped.

I was never able to get a sizable navy to cause serious trade disruption. My mistake, not taking out Sweden early.

[pgeerkens]

For those struggling to defeat Maratha forces at even odds:

• Give yourself a cavalry reserve of 2 or 3 cavalry behind each full stack, and up your starting cavalry in each full stack to 3. Keep the heaviest at start as protection for your long guns and use the other two to harass Maratha melee troops during their advance. The goal is to increase the time those melee troops spend under howitzer fire before reaching your lines, using the threat of being charged in flank: don't expend the threat too quickly, and keep them Fresh by walking rather than running until the threat is discharged. Ideally every Maratha melee unit has received at least two hits by a howitzer battery (equivalently, one from a double battery) before reaching your line. If you can inflict twice this, many will melt like butter from your Fire By Rank before contact.
  
• Avoid engaging Maratha cavalry with these forces. Light cavalry is desirable because of their greater stamina, but they will not stand against Maratha cavalry. If needed support each with one battalion of line infantry and likewise increase the trailing reserve by two Line Infantry battalions.
  
• Aim to expend these forces before the main Maratha assault hits your line, so that the reserves can enter the battle in a timely fashion.
  
• Early on it's fine to set your howitzers to Fire At Will; but Before the Maratha main assault hits your line be sure to disable this and target ground (or advancing Maratha artillery) instead. This reduces friendly fire casualties.
  
• Don't engage enemy cavalry with your own except in the most dire circumstance; or the opportunity arises to charge in flank. Your line infantry, in square formation, is quite capable of defeating enemy cavalry with modest casualties. Your own cavalry is too valuable, both as shock troops and pursuit, to be expended for this task.
  
• Always cycle-charge your cavalry; don't just leave them in the melee to die. Observe closely and you will see that charged infantry takes a morale hit when the charging cavalry successfully disengages to reform. They know what's coming next, and often break upon the successful disengagement. If not the first time, they will break on the second or third good charge and succeeding disengagement.
  
• When the cavalry protecting your long guns counter charges, do so obliquely so the guns can be directed to fire at the opposite angle behind them. This is more effective than waiting, possibly too long, for the final canister round to be fired. be sure those cavalry are far enough behind the guns, about a thumb's width, to build up a good speed before contact.

Originally posted by Bfloo:

When going into India, I usually attack from the south, build the army and navy you think you will need.

My three stack invasion works like this:

1. Fleet (two squadrons each led by Fifth Rate admiral) arrives and rendezvous in position off Goa. Two Indiamen as transports take position south of them about 2/3 from Arabian Sea sea box and Ceylon.
   
2. Two stacks arrive in Arabian Sea sea box. DOW Maratha. Engage and destroy Maratha fleet in ports from Surat to Calicut; fully destroy all these ports to maximum damage (except Calicut and Goa which just take 10% damage - one hit and out again). Larger squadron then takes position off Bjapur while smaller moves to Ceylon Strait.
   
   Both stacks chain-transport to Ceylon, one taking it the other sitting in port.
   
3. Third stack arrives in Arabian Sea sea box, and chain transports to Bombay and takes Bjapur. Stack NOT in port at Ceylon invades at Pondicherry and takes Arcot (Carnutica). Stack IN port at Ceylon invades at Caliut; takes Mysore; and advances past Pulivendla Mines in preparation to take Hyderabad next turn.
   
   Squadron in Ceylon Strait moves towards Calcutta to provide option of invading at Calcutta next turn.
   
4. Depending on Maratha defences, three general possibilities now exist:
   • Stack at Pulivendla takes Hyderabad; Stack in Arcot transports to and captures Calcutta; and stack in Bjapur takes Goa and returns to defend Bjapur.
     
   • Stack at Pulivendla takes Hyderabad; Stack in Arcot transports to and captures Goa; Stack in Bjapur attacks nearby Maratha forces or takes Ahmadnagar;
     
   • Stack at Pulivendla attacks Maratha defenders on the Deccan Plateau; Stack in Bjapur mops up Maratha remnants from the above; and Stack in Arcot transports to and captures Calcutta.
5. From here the general continuation is:
   • Stack on the Deccan Plateau clears Maratha remnants south of the Hyderabad river; then takes Nagppur and clears Maratha remnants south and east of it; and moves to capture Delhi.
     
   • Arcot/Goa stack takes Calcutta (if not already), then Orissa & Circars; and then chain-transports back to Surat to join the left wing.
     
   • Stack in Bjapur feeds out in support of left wing as its garrison duties reduce. The left wing then moves on Sindh and Rajputana.

If the above can be timed so that Maratha is heavily invested in Persia and Anatolia their ability to defend this is reduced even more.

Originally posted by Bfloo:

I was never able to get a sizable navy to cause serious trade disruption. My mistake, not taking out Sweden early.

If you are in India by about 1730 or the Maratha will not yet have even 6th rates. A couple of modest fleets led by an Admiral's Fifth Rate supported by a couple of 6th Rates each and a few Brigs and Sloops is more than sufficient, even on Auto Resolve, to handle the Maratha fleet at this point.

[Mark VI]

Thank you both gentleman, I made it to conquer most of India before it could cause trouble around 1739, settled quite a peace deal that would finance my conquest in Europe.

[Bfloo]

Originally posted by pgeerkens:

For those struggling to defeat Maratha forces at even odds:

• Give yourself a cavalry reserve of 2 or 3 cavalry behind each full stack, and up your starting cavalry in each full stack to 3. Keep the heaviest at start as protection for your long guns and use the other two to harass Maratha melee troops during their advance. The goal is to increase the time those melee troops spend under howitzer fire before reaching your lines, using the threat of being charged in flank: don't expend the threat too quickly, and keep them Fresh by walking rather than running until the threat is discharged. Ideally every Maratha melee unit has received at least two hits by a howitzer battery (equivalently, one from a double battery) before reaching your line. If you can inflict twice this, many will melt like butter from your Fire By Rank before contact.
  
• Avoid engaging Maratha cavalry with these forces. Light cavalry is desirable because of their greater stamina, but they will not stand against Maratha cavalry. If needed support each with one battalion of line infantry and likewise increase the trailing reserve by two Line Infantry battalions.
  
• Aim to expend these forces before the main Maratha assault hits your line, so that the reserves can enter the battle in a timely fashion.
  
• Early on it's fine to set your howitzers to Fire At Will; but Before the Maratha main assault hits your line be sure to disable this and target ground (or advancing Maratha artillery) instead. This reduces friendly fire casualties.
  
• Don't engage enemy cavalry with your own except in the most dire circumstance; or the opportunity arises to charge in flank. Your line infantry, in square formation, is quite capable of defeating enemy cavalry with modest casualties. Your own cavalry is too valuable, both as shock troops and pursuit, to be expended for this task.
  
• Always cycle-charge your cavalry; don't just leave them in the melee to die. Observe closely and you will see that charged infantry takes a morale hit when the charging cavalry successfully disengages to reform. They know what's coming next, and often break upon the successful disengagement. If not the first time, they will break on the second or third good charge and succeeding disengagement.
  
• When the cavalry protecting your long guns counter charges, do so obliquely so the guns can be directed to fire at the opposite angle behind them. This is more effective than waiting, possibly too long, for the final canister round to be fired. be sure those cavalry are far enough behind the guns, about a thumb's width, to build up a good speed before contact.

Originally posted by Bfloo:

When going into India, I usually attack from the south, build the army and navy you think you will need.

My three stack invasion works like this:

1. Fleet (two squadrons each led by Fifth Rate admiral) arrives and rendezvous in position off Goa. Two Indiamen as transports take position south of them about 2/3 from Arabian Sea sea box and Ceylon.
   
2. Two stacks arrive in Arabian Sea sea box. DOW Maratha. Engage and destroy Maratha fleet in ports from Surat to Calicut; fully destroy all these ports to maximum damage (except Calicut and Goa which just take 10% damage - one hit and out again). Larger squadron then takes position off Bjapur while smaller moves to Ceylon Strait.
   
   Both stacks chain-transport to Ceylon, one taking it the other sitting in port.
   
3. Third stack arrives in Arabian Sea sea box, and chain transports to Bombay and takes Bjapur. Stack NOT in port at Ceylon invades at Pondicherry and takes Arcot (Carnutica). Stack IN port at Ceylon invades at Caliut; takes Mysore; and advances past Pulivendla Mines in preparation to take Hyderabad next turn.
   
   Squadron in Ceylon Strait moves towards Calcutta to provide option of invading at Calcutta next turn.
   
4. Depending on Maratha defences, three general possibilities now exist:
   • Stack at Pulivendla takes Hyderabad; Stack in Arcot transports to and captures Calcutta; and stack in Bjapur takes Goa and returns to defend Bjapur.
     
   • Stack at Pulivendla takes Hyderabad; Stack in Arcot transports to and captures Goa; Stack in Bjapur attacks nearby Maratha forces or takes Ahmadnagar;
     
   • Stack at Pulivendla attacks Maratha defenders on the Deccan Plateau; Stack in Bjapur mops up Maratha remnants from the above; and Stack in Arcot transports to and captures Calcutta.
5. From here the general continuation is:
   • Stack on the Deccan Plateau clears Maratha remnants south of the Hyderabad river; then takes Nagppur and clears Maratha remnants south and east of it; and moves to capture Delhi.
     
   • Arcot/Goa stack takes Calcutta (if not already), then Orissa & Circars; and then chain-transports back to Surat to join the left wing.
     
   • Stack in Bjapur feeds out in support of left wing as its garrison duties reduce. The left wing then moves on Sindh and Rajputana.

If the above can be timed so that Maratha is heavily invested in Persia and Anatolia their ability to defend this is reduced even more.

Originally posted by Bfloo:

I was never able to get a sizable navy to cause serious trade disruption. My mistake, not taking out Sweden early.

If you are in India by about 1730 or the Maratha will not yet have even 6th rates. A couple of modest fleets led by an Admiral's Fifth Rate supported by a couple of 6th Rates each and a few Brigs and Sloops is more than sufficient, even on Auto Resolve, to handle the Maratha fleet at this point.

You put a lot more thought into this than I have. I'm pretty sure in the game I was referring to was a lot later than 1730. Either way, I had not put much effort into naval research, just enough to deal with pirates, who I conquered. Then I moved to India, just because it was there.

[MANWHATADONGA]

Get half a chance take Celyon for a miltary base.

[pgeerkens]

Originally posted by Bfloo:

Originally posted by pgeerkens:

...

You put a lot more thought into this than I have. I'm pretty sure in the game I was referring to was a lot later than 1730. Either way, I had not put much effort into naval research, just enough to deal with pirates, who I conquered. Then I moved to India, just because it was there.

I'm closing in on 7,000 hours playing ETW, with another 3000+ on NTW. I've probably invaded India near twenty times. Hopefully the previous post helps some struggling soul to improve.

[OZFugazi]

heyo..

my thoughts. as any campaign i play is world domination and my first target is always maratha asap. nothing is worse than the "orange menace" getting out of control. if the country i am playing as, has access to quick navy.. even easier.

1. UP, britain, france, spain are the easiest.. especially spain (galleons) and britian (4th rates from the start). 4 is all you need.. the rest can be trade ships. send those to dispatch maratha's tiny/weak navy.. lock down the ports they have with the trade ships. blockading any port (with our indiamans) will prevent maratha from building ships to counter your blockades. keep your small fleet there to support.

2. UP has a trade navy stationed in the east indies. move it to india and do the same.. take out navy.. lock down ports.

any other nation can have a more challenging time, depending on access to ocean.. ie. russia, prussia, poland, austria.. ect. it may take a bit longer depending on the nation, as they may not have access to ports at all. russia being the slowest. you can also trade (as russia or poland) some territory to denmark, in exchange for iceland and have a solid launching point to develop your navy, from there. iceland can have two ports, one immediately and is relatively safe. (accept if maratha develops.. they tend to target iceland with invasion later in the mid game). once denmark gets destroyed my sweeden.. just war the territory you traded back to you.

3. once all the ports are locked down.. including NEW ports that might spawn over time. and the indian ocean is completely clean of all maratha navy. i send one or two armies.. to slash and burn. i don't hold any of the territory aside from ceylon or maybe carnatica. as a base of operation to refortify. i take a territory and remove all buildings and upgrades from it. stripping it down to nothing and forcing maratha to spend as much as possible to rebuild it all. you do that to three or four territories, (on opposite side of the indian continent) and either those provinces will rebel, or the massive armies maratha loves to build, will implode. empire does "help" ai nations with money and lower cost units/upkeep. however, the AI still needs income to support those armies. if you lock down ports and slash and burn territories.. there is no trade and AI tends to flatten out rather quickly. once the maratha army on land is crippled.. then take territories and rebuild them yourself.

with practice and early enough.. you can use the mughal to help you with this .. or just wait until the mughal are destroyed.

taking out india early game is a huge income boon for the rest of the game. i cannot imagine (myself), playing a world domination campaign, without taking out india.. or at the very least having full control over maratha. as that "orange menace" becomes the trigger that destroys many a keyboard. the only other time i personally would not do this.. is if i was playing world domination AS maratha.

gl out there..

all the best.

[Bfloo]

Originally posted by pgeerkens:

Originally posted by Bfloo:

You put a lot more thought into this than I have. I'm pretty sure in the game I was referring to was a lot later than 1730. Either way, I had not put much effort into naval research, just enough to deal with pirates, who I conquered. Then I moved to India, just because it was there.

I'm closing in on 7,000 hours playing ETW, with another 3000+ on NTW. I've probably invaded India near twenty times. Hopefully the previous post helps some struggling soul to improve.

I recently crossed 500 and still feel like a noob

I have never really figured out the naval aspect of the game. My basic strategy for naval invasions is drop my army off, then get out of Dodge before my fleet gets sunk in autoresolve. So it turns into the old, debark and burn the ships routine.

[Big Moustache]

As moghuls you can create distractions and really cripple Maratha. But it does involve Naval supremacy. Once you have NS you can land on the undefended east coast with 1 army. Capture as many settlements as you can and delete every building inside and outside the cities, like farms ans stuff. You do not keep these regions but let them be recaptured or rebel. Recaptured will drain economy because everything has to be rebuild.

Without trade income and crippled east coast they will crumble fast and beg for peace not soon after. At this point you can start capturing for keeps and snowball

[pgeerkens]

Originally posted by Fragoos:

As moghuls ....

Those playing vanilla have no interest in your experience playing mods that fundamentally change the game. And certainly have the decency to state what mods you have installed and are playing.

The -30 (instead of -13) Public Order Penalty for home regions applies to ALL playable factions, playing a mod that enables the Moghul faction as playable fundamentally changes the dynamic on the Indian subcontinent in regards the region Hindustan.

[Big Moustache]

Originally posted by pgeerkens:

Originally posted by Fragoos:

As moghuls ....

Those playing vanilla have no interest in your experience playing mods that fundamentally change the game. And certainly have the decency to state what mods you have installed and are playing.

I never use mods. I thought op was playing with a mod as Moghuls. Sorry if that make me indecent to you. Now piss off

Vanilla is even more easy. Race to Ceylon when the Dutch are killed of the first time. Here you can recruit cheap colonial armies. Recruit 4 full stacks. Attack Mysore first, this auto wardecs Maratha without its allies. Now you control a capital city next to Maratha capital and got rid of the vassal first. Drop colonial stacks in Hindustan and nearest coastal settlement next to Persia. Keep sieging capital and capture every coastal settlement with trade ports.

[Bfloo]

I changed my mind, the Maratha are a menace.

They just attacked me in Rupert's Land, which I have ignored all game.