Zan is just not very good

[11DLittlewood]

I feel like I don't know what to do with Zan. It seems like the optimal way to play is to try to use abilities that can knock around people as much as possible, and Zan just isn't that good at doing that. 3 bolt burst can only hit one person when used as an attack, and only deals one knockback; supportive fire doesn't help because I don't use the anyone's "standard attack" much. Time boost is good but often not the most optimal use of mana. False prophet is almost always not the most optimal use of mana, except in really specific scenarios where I'm trying to seal a distant door. Predictive bolt requires complicated positioning, and he can't take cover while using it, so it's difficult to actually make it work. Really I've found he is most effective as a bullet sponge.

[♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥]

Did you know that if predictive bolt triggers on your turn, his other unused abilities (cover included) are available again?

Did you get to the story part where his ability is upgraded? All team members get a buff to their main ability at some point.

Maybe you're undervaluing the main abilities of the other teammates? Because I've had plenty of situations where Zan had incredible output thanks to using other abilities at the right moment, and I never felt I had to ignore better abilities to do so.

[maru]

Using predictive bolt with the if it kills you can re-use it perk plus Dall's swap with the free for allies perk you can pretty quickly clean up all the low level guys in most rooms without even using up any actions. Also, the time boost with the bomb/AoE perk is super helpful, using it on the entire team to let them take an extra action per turn isn't even my most common use...most often I find myself using it to give Jen an extra action so that she can use her static blast and the perk that gives her an extra regular walking movement, often letting her get anywhere on a map in the first turn.

[SingularByte]

So, there are a few good ways to use his abilities.

The first big way is to just combo with Dall. e.g. if you have false prophet's attack ability or infinite supportive fire, and Dall's infinite rampage, you can cheese out infinite bullets by having her changing back and forth splatting prophets. Either that or just position prophets in such a way that she can charge small distances to reposition for free and just wipe out the whole map with charges. It helps that these costs *no mana* if you have the perk to refund dead prophets too.

The prophets are also really handy for clearing any kind of mines or sniper shots, or help out a character who would otherwise take a guaranteed hit - again for free if you get a refund on death. This counts double against the enemies that move each time you do, as you can trivially turn off their movement for free by handing them a prophet to kill.

If you have the version of Rion's vine that can snag someone without costing an action, it's often possible to get a free predictive kill - or more than one if there's some distance between the two characters. Just aim vaguely at the enemy, and pull.

Also, don't underestimate literally just sitting Zan in front of a door and using a predictive shot to kill someone the moment they walk in. Even if it's not an outright kill, it's often more than enough to remove gas masks from enemies that are otherwise infuriating to deal with.

[CrazyMLC]

There's a lot of important Zan tech that easily makes him the strongest member of the squad.

Zan can supportive fire off of his own False Prophet's Hurtful Lie. If you place the False Prophet so that an enemy that can act during your turn (like a Shepherd) instantly kills it after this, you get an immediate refund using Persistent Delusion, letting you chain this over and over.

You can kill every enemy on a map in Act 3 by doing this, without even spending an action. This can potentially still be done in Act 4, with a little more effort.

Once you factor in all the Useful Fiction utility False Prophet provides, the damage it can soak, the supportive fire damage it adds, as well as that you're guaranteed to get the ball rolling using Validation, he's just unstoppable.

He's scarier than Liv, and always was.

[Terrarius]

Originally posted by CrazyMLC:

There's a lot of important Zan tech that easily makes him the strongest member of the squad.

Zan can supportive fire off of his own False Prophet's Hurtful Lie. If you place the False Prophet so that an enemy that can act during your turn (like a Shepherd) instantly kills it after this, you get an immediate refund using Persistent Delusion, letting you chain this over and over.

You can kill every enemy on a map in Act 3 by doing this, without even spending an action. This can potentially still be done in Act 4, with a little more effort.

Once you factor in all the Useful Fiction utility False Prophet provides, the damage it can soak, the supportive fire damage it adds, as well as that you're guaranteed to get the ball rolling using Validation, he's just unstoppable.

He's scarier than Liv, and always was.

On the topic of zan, do you think his infinites are an oversight or intended? (false prophet refunding itself when dying paired with rion or dall killing it with abilitys that also infinitely reset due to killing an ally)

[CrazyMLC]

Originally posted by Terrarius:

On the topic of zan, do you think his infinites are an oversight or intended? (false prophet refunding itself when dying paired with rion or dall killing it with abilitys that also infinitely reset due to killing an ally)

Probably unintentional, but I could imagine they left it in as a fun quirk to find. I think it fits his story to unintentionally be the most powerful in the whole game, he just never noticed. Liv was super insecure about it so she went on her temper tantrum.

[Stoibs]

Originally posted by Terrarius:

On the topic of zan, do you think his infinites are an oversight or intended? (false prophet refunding itself when dying paired with rion or dall killing it with abilitys that also infinitely reset due to killing an ally)

I'd *like* to think they weren't an oversight since the game has been in development for about 4 years now, and I think the dev has a good head on his shoulders for this sort of thing.
But yeah I like the idea that Zan is a 25 year veteran and is actually pretty skilled.

But also coincidentally and by pure chance for me I only really stumbled across and discovered this combo at the tail end of Chapter 3/Start of Chapter 4, when I was introduced to Liv's overpowered version of the 50 Prophet copies so narratively for Zan it synced up and worked amazing well for my playthrough that he would then experiment and employ this sort of strategy himself :D

[Truth]

Zan's also primarily a support teammate, so he's less about having a lot of innate power like the rest and more about having tools to benefit everybody outside of eliminating baddies (I mean, he's the whole reason you can Rewind to begin wiht, so that's kinda baked into the game).

Plus a lot of his really potent abilities requires certain perks or setting up for correct use, like with False Prophet.

[76561197988918266]

You actually depend on 3 bolt before the plot upgrade? It's pretty useless against most of the harder to knock/push enemies due to armor for majority of the game.

There's a reason why out of your first 2 characters, one has a one-shot(or close enough) ability that can be upgraded to be reused if it knocked someone on your turn *and* give mana, and the other has both attacks that only push people around.

[armbarchris]

You know his False Prophet clones all get his Supporting Fire ability right? And they can all trigger each other?

[Stoibs]

Originally posted by armbarchris:

You know his False Prophet clones all get his Supporting Fire ability right? And they can all trigger each other?

I for one, did not know this...
I never unlocked Supportive fire because I never thought of Zan as a main damage dealer in lieu of utility. I may need to look into this..

[Lowjack]

Originally posted by Stoibs:

Originally posted by armbarchris:

You know his False Prophet clones all get his Supporting Fire ability right? And they can all trigger each other?

I for one, did not know this... :spazhorror:
I never unlocked Supportive fire because I never thought of Zan as a main damage dealer in lieu of utility. I may need to look into this..

Yeah, if you abuse Dallswap to let Zan kill as many enemies as possible, you can spawn enough False Prophets to kill Liv Kennedy with 50 lives. Example: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3321065297

[Stoibs]

I'm not done with the game just yet so I'll refrain from clicking on those links, but it's cool that there's so many combinations ways to game the system

[DemoCorn]

Personally before I found out how powerful certain skill combos with Dall are I used Zan as more of an "oh ♥♥♥♥" tool. Jen left a guy at 2 hp? Zan can kill them. I need an extra attack to knock someone off the map? Zan can give that in multiple ways. Rion needs an extra mana for brittle application? Quickly set up a foresight attack with Zan and someone else to get it. Can't barricade that door this turn? Put Zan in front of it to watch it. Not able to take out that final enemy? Zan can stop their attack. Need an extra mana with Dall? Deal a single damage to her with Zan.

Every character has a niche in the game, Jen is pushing people around and being speed goblin if you build her as such, Banks is supporting the team by adding damage potential and dealing with squishies while also keeping everyone alive, Dalls is dealing tons of damage with good positioning and changing the overall state of the battlefield at the same time, Rions is dealing with tanky enemies and creating chaos, Zans is making Dall look like the most blatantly overpowered character in any turn based tactics game doing a little bit of everything. That's why he might feel weak, by design he's worse then anyone else at most things but better then your worst at that task.

I'd say really look at his abilities and imagine how your gameplay would change if you took them. Supportive fire sounds weak until you realise that with halfway decent positioning it is a free 2-3 extra damage on every attack from others, and at that point it may well be better in various situations to use a basic attack then a mana ability. False Prophet is a pretty useless waste of mana but becomes a free bullet sponge/mine or overwatch clearer when you take persistent delusion. Predictive bolt requires set up but can one shot most enemies and can be combined with validation and time boost to give back the action other team members used to set it up.

If all else fails and you still feel they're weak maybe your difficulty is just too low and that is materialising as Zan feeling useless. The idea that you could forgo basic attacking for the most part signals you're at least not playing on hard, making things more difficult will make you really appreciate most of Zans skills.

[Isisius]

Originally posted by maru:

Using predictive bolt with the if it kills you can re-use it perk plus Dall's swap with the free for allies perk you can pretty quickly clean up all the low level guys in most rooms without even using up any actions. Also, the time boost with the bomb/AoE perk is super helpful, using it on the entire team to let them take an extra action per turn isn't even my most common use...most often I find myself using it to give Jen an extra action so that she can use her static blast and the perk that gives her an extra regular walking movement, often letting her get anywhere on a map in the first turn.

Ok, i cant believe i never though of swapping him while in his stance. Ive got 3 missions left and this never occurred to me lol.
There are so many damn uses for all the different characters, the game is so flexible. It was very early on i realized id been underusing Livs chain push ability since i could use it to position allies.
And there were so many skills like that where i suddenly had this, oooohhhh moment and saw a new way to use it. Even putting transference onto someone and then having Zan shooting the person both so they were repositioned and to kill an enemy i couldnt reach.

And the time grenade alone makes Zan the most useful. Group up your dudes near a mana recharge item, have zav give everyone 2 extra actions (3 if he can shoot something to get mana, then use Livs grenade to reset there movement and just clean the entire map up.