No soil suitable for certain grapes?

[ゲ-で]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2486830325
For instance there's not a single batch of soil that is suitable for Nebbiolo, so I can't grow a perfect batch of it, even a decent one. I realize that in real life you can't grow it everywhere, but for a game it feels a bit counterintuitive.
It would be nice to have an option to alter soil composition even slightly for such cases.

[waltduo]

I agree with these last two posts on either setting up the fields better to accommodate all of the grapes (I could never find a place for Dolcetto, for one instance, after multiple tries) or set up a method to adjust the soil composition!!!

One thing nice that I noticed with the Napa DLC is the grape auction technology where you can buy different grapes of varying quality and then experiment with the ideal ways for processing and then selling them if you cannot find a suitable place to cultivate them. It would have been much better after buying the DLC if it would have added the grape auction option to the original game.

[RobOda]

My latest endless game, in which I went 11 years making one wine because the game is set up like a mobile game with no realistic sense of progression;

Price / Field / Best grape;

25k / Principe / Gignolino (the end game grape ffs.)
52k / Coste / Erbluence (another end game grape lol...)
65k / Roche / NONE
73k / Ginestra / NONE
200k / Brunate / Cortese
380k / Castell / Cortese
500k: Casot / Chardonnay OR Erbluence
1.5m / Bussia / Nebbiolo


I mean, that's a topsy turvey situation there, the newbie grapes; Chardonnay and Nebbiolo are best suited to fields costing in excess of 500k, whereas the end game grapes are best on the cheapest of fields.

There's no fields suitable for the Arneis or Dolcetto varieties either.

I don't see why they couldn't make a progression ladder (this is basic gaming systems devs, come on...) so the Principe is suitable for Chardonnay, Coste suits for the next unlockable grape and so on and so forth.

Each tier costing a little bit more, scaling up alongside the profits you get as you go along.

But even the core gameplay loop is too grindy, everything needs to cost like 50% cheaper, and profits needs to be 25% higher at a base level. It's just Runescape Tetris, grinding for no real progress.

Disappointing game, really glad I didn't buy it (Free on Epic. :P)

[yveshohler]

RobOda님이 먼저 게시:

My latest endless game, in which I went 11 years making one wine because the game is set up like a mobile game with no realistic sense of progression;

Price / Field / Best grape;

25k / Principe / Gignolino (the end game grape ffs.)
52k / Coste / Erbluence (another end game grape lol...)
65k / Roche / NONE
73k / Ginestra / NONE
200k / Brunate / Cortese
380k / Castell / Cortese
500k: Casot / Chardonnay OR Erbluence
1.5m / Bussia / Nebbiolo


I mean, that's a topsy turvey situation there, the newbie grapes; Chardonnay and Nebbiolo are best suited to fields costing in excess of 500k, whereas the end game grapes are best on the cheapest of fields.

There's no fields suitable for the Arneis or Dolcetto varieties either.

I don't see why they couldn't make a progression ladder (this is basic gaming systems devs, come on...) so the Principe is suitable for Chardonnay, Coste suits for the next unlockable grape and so on and so forth.

Each tier costing a little bit more, scaling up alongside the profits you get as you go along.

But even the core gameplay loop is too grindy, everything needs to cost like 50% cheaper, and profits needs to be 25% higher at a base level. It's just Runescape Tetris, grinding for no real progress.

Disappointing game, really glad I didn't buy it (Free on Epic. :P)

the problem here is that you have no idea how real the prices of the vineyards are:

https://www.immobiliare.it/annunci/85460466/?utm_source=trovit&utm_medium=aggregatori&utm_campaign=generic&utm_content=desktop

And the game works as intended becouse our idea is that you need to work with what you get and not the other way around

Oh and for the last part, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE SUPPORT

[Santa]

yveshohler님이 먼저 게시:

the problem here is that you have no idea how real the prices of the vineyards are:

https://www.immobiliare.it/annunci/85460466/?utm_source=trovit&utm_medium=aggregatori&utm_campaign=generic&utm_content=desktop

And the game works as intended becouse our idea is that you need to work with what you get and not the other way around

so the terrible vineyards are intended?
why keep realism when it comes to high prices but not when it comes to soil treatments?
you do know you can treat soil in reality to be less sandy or more sandy or less acidic or ore etc, hell i've even done it myself..

as always with gamedev its best to not keep realism where it takes away from the game and keep it where it adds ie: parachutes in ww2 were prone to fail, so having someone play a permadeath game where a significant chunk of games start with the chute failing isnt good realism, but having the chute look realistis and the guns look and feel realistic is.

the point still stands: if we couldnt change the soil itd make sence to have the plots actually match a grape.
if we could change the soil you could keep the same system.
but as it is right now its just a worst of both choices scenario, and from a gameplay perspective it makes 0 sence.

[yveshohler]

Santa님이 먼저 게시:

yveshohler님이 먼저 게시:

the problem here is that you have no idea how real the prices of the vineyards are:

https://www.immobiliare.it/annunci/85460466/?utm_source=trovit&utm_medium=aggregatori&utm_campaign=generic&utm_content=desktop

And the game works as intended becouse our idea is that you need to work with what you get and not the other way around

so the terrible vineyards are intended?
why keep realism when it comes to high prices but not when it comes to soil treatments?
you do know you can treat soil in reality to be less sandy or more sandy or less acidic or ore etc, hell i've even done it myself..

as always with gamedev its best to not keep realism where it takes away from the game and keep it where it adds ie: parachutes in ww2 were prone to fail, so having someone play a permadeath game where a significant chunk of games start with the chute failing isnt good realism, but having the chute look realistis and the guns look and feel realistic is.

the point still stands: if we couldnt change the soil itd make sence to have the plots actually match a grape.
if we could change the soil you could keep the same system.
but as it is right now its just a worst of both choices scenario, and from a gameplay perspective it makes 0 sence.

Unfortunetly you can not treat soil in large plots, it will whash away and would be illegal to do it for cru plots.

Otherwise you wuold have Barolo from Dubai

And yes, not perfect wineyards are intended

[jordan.thorin]

Just here to say that even with a non ideal soil, you can still produce quality grapes without problem. Just cut them to the max.
You will produce less wine? Sure, bt at the same time you will have a good wine for special buys and you can focus on selling this wine just for people.
I optimize my revenue not selling bulks to supermarkets and just selling to restaurants that pays good money.
I'm IN LOVE FOR THIS GAME and so happy that it came for free on Epic.
Just a question: grapes I created can just be used on inifnite mode?

[yveshohler]

jordan.thorin님이 먼저 게시:

Just here to say that even with a non ideal soil, you can still produce quality grapes without problem. Just cut them to the max.
You will produce less wine? Sure, bt at the same time you will have a good wine for special buys and you can focus on selling this wine just for people.
I optimize my revenue not selling bulks to supermarkets and just selling to restaurants that pays good money.
I'm IN LOVE FOR THIS GAME and so happy that it came for free on Epic.
Just a question: grapes I created can just be used on inifnite mode?

Thank you so much for the kind words!

Yes the custom grapes are only for the endless mode

[Atmaweapon]

I'm loving this game. I don't think it is too grindy at all, I like the prices where they are.

I do wish that there was a way to match the terroir soil properties to the default grapes in the end game.

After playing story mode game for many game-years, maxing out my winery's fame and amassing a fortune, it would be nice if I could have the endgame goal of investing in the perfect fields to produce the top wines in the world and win the national exhibition.

[Santa]

yveshohler님이 먼저 게시:

Unfortunetly you can not treat soil in large plots, it will whash away and would be illegal to do it for cru plots.

Otherwise you wuold have Barolo from Dubai

And yes, not perfect wineyards are intended

wouldnt cru be more limited to region and the grape itself, after all fertillization is a soil treatment in and of itself.

or why not be given the choice to ditch the name and go at it alone like the story already does in other ways.

and the soil treatments i posted would not wash away, they are mixed into the soil with the use of either diggers or deep ploughs. the other materials ive previously named and crushed shell, off spec aggegrate limestone are used already in many places to make soil more suitable. just because it hasnt been needed in reality because the crus are in fact a cru because theyre ideal for the grape plants and not a mismatched horrid mess, doesnt mean people cant or wouldnt implement them if needed.

and you would still have imperfect wineyards for the bulk of the game.

nevermind missing the opportunity of telling a story of the main character kicking against the established order by modifying the soil and becoming even more of an independent force in the process.
its again taking interactivity/agency away for the reason of realism, and im suspecting there's a different reasoning then the one stated because its to be frank: lacking.

with all due respect, you got so close with the game but with this design choice you lose out on replayabillity and endgame content to a large degree enough to make people drop out instead of spread the word.

[GYLLE-Skidesaar]

Yves.. i agree with alot of the comments in here and in reviews.
This game is fun, has a lot of potential, but when i went far into the campaign years and wanted to buy new plots of lands only to discover that they didnt really fitted with any grapes, but were red, I went to google and found that others was disappointed in this as well.
The reason you give that its intended and to work with what you have, WILL make players leave, cause its not fun gameplay if you see red text and know you cant progress in a good way.
Im sorry for your choice here, it will kill the game.

[Great Sage Equal of Heaven]

Yeh I have to agree. It's one thing to 'make do with what you have' but when what you have is crap and you can't improve it, what's the point? My current endless playthrough I've got good terroir on only two vineyards, I'm not gonna spend stupid money on any more to produce less than perfect wines

[yveshohler]

i read you all, just that you know that your feedback is not unheard

[Herr Bert]

yveshohler님이 먼저 게시:

i read you all, just that you know that your feedback is not unheard

@yveshohler i've played quite a bit and i really enjoy the game but this is something that bothers me too.

i totally get that your vision for this game was to make the process as close to real wine-making as possible and that includes having to deal with less than perfect soil conditions because in real life you aren't allowed to change ph-levels or soil composition of massive plots of lands due to environmental reasons.

however, this is still a game. having to go through numerous seeds just to find one that works for more than two or three grape variants in endless is not very fun.
maybe you could implement an option in the settings before starting a new game to ask if the players want to play with realistic conditions (so no soil adjusting) or not. and if they chose the second option at some point in the tool shed skill tree you'd be able to unlock something like a lab or shop to experiment with soil?

just an idea :)

[yveshohler]

Herr Bert님이 먼저 게시:

yveshohler님이 먼저 게시:

i read you all, just that you know that your feedback is not unheard

@yveshohler i've played quite a bit and i really enjoy the game but this is something that bothers me too.

i totally get that your vision for this game was to make the process as close to real wine-making as possible and that includes having to deal with less than perfect soil conditions because in real life you aren't allowed to change ph-levels or soil composition of massive plots of lands due to environmental reasons.

however, this is still a game. having to go through numerous seeds just to find one that works for more than two or three grape variants in endless is not very fun.
maybe you could implement an option in the settings before starting a new game to ask if the players want to play with realistic conditions (so no soil adjusting) or not. and if they chose the second option at some point in the tool shed skill tree you'd be able to unlock something like a lab or shop to experiment with soil?

just an idea :)

we are experimenting with some idea, and you got close to what we are trying to do