[SPOILER] Ch.3 Questions

[Kanaev]

Spoilers for all chapters up to the end of 7.

Ok, this is sorta answer for Tatarigoroshi-hen, but more like a "how to deal with the same situation in a better way", i.e. - the only thing it answered out of Ch.3 questions is about how the whole village died (all other revelations aside).

What I didn't get an answer for is why Satoko's uncle was alive after Watanagashi in Ch.3 and how come Keichi was in two places at once. We know that both instances were real.
Festival Keichi was confirmed by almost everyone who attended, while murder-crazy Keichi is confirmed by the grave he dug up, his ride with Takano and Oishi's trap when he came to check the corpse.

Yet:
A) Uncle was alive.
B) Keichi was in two places at the same time

If we try to apply the theory of disease, then it still wouldn't add up. Keichi was at the festival the whole time, yet imagined how Takano gave him a ride after a murder? We also know that uncle did leave the house on Watanagashi, due to Oishi's PoV.

I just don't get it and want some answers. This semi-dimension jump was a fantastic plot to drive both Keichi and the reader crazy, but even in the answer chapter for it we don't know what happened

If someone could explain it to me - that would be great, but please no spoilers for Ch.8, as I'm awaiting a sale to pick it up. If it's answered in the last chapter - please just say so without spoiling anything, although I doubt it would come up. In Ch.6 Rena was under impression that there are doubles, which would've explained both Keichi and Uncle, but we know that the corpse was fake.

Thank you.

[fllthdcrb]

The answer arcs don't answer purely their corresponding question arcs. You need to look at everything you've seen so far to figure out everything.

Originally posted by Kanaev:

A) Uncle was alive.
B) Keichi was in two places at the same time

I'll start by giving a (big) hint. The answer to both of these is actually in "Tsumihoroboshi-hen". Do you remember a similar situation, one where a main character murdered someone? You should, since it was a huge part of the plot. What actually happened there? In "Tsumihoroboshi-hen", you can see what you couldn't in "Tatarigoroshi-hen" due to the limited perspective.

[Kanaev]

Originally posted by fllthdcrb:

The answer arcs don't answer purely their corresponding question arcs. You need to look at everything you've seen so far to figure out everything.

Originally posted by Kanaev:

A) Uncle was alive.
B) Keichi was in two places at the same time

I'll start by giving a (big) hint. The answer is actually in "Tsumihoroboshi-hen". Do you remember a similar situation? One where a main character murdered someone? You should, since it was a huge part of the plot. What actually happened there?

If you are talking about Keichi's flashbacks to Onikakushi - he had hallucinations due to the disease and saw what wasn't there, which prompted him to kill his friends.
If you are talking about Reina - she did kill those two, it was no hallucination.

[fllthdcrb]

Originally posted by Kanaev:

If you are talking about Reina - she did kill those two, it was no hallucination.

Yes, this. (Keiichi's flashback is relevant, too, but more as an indication that some things we saw earlier were delusions.) And what else happened related to these murders? Her friends talked to her about them, which didn't happen in "Tatarigoroshi-hen", but other than that, think about what they did, and her response to it. We know she really did kill them, but what were her thoughts later on?

As for point (B), something similar also seemed to happen to Rena, though maybe you forgot that.

[Kanaev]

Originally posted by fllthdcrb:

Originally posted by Kanaev:

If you are talking about Reina - she did kill those two, it was no hallucination.

Yes, this. And what else happened related to these murders? Her friends talked to her about them, which didn't happen in "Tatarigoroshi-hen", but other than that, think about what they did, and her response to it. We know she really did kill them, but what were her thoughts later on?

As for point (B), something similar also happened to Rena, though maybe you forgot that.

I'll jump right to (B) - the theory of them creating an alibi for Keichi would've worked, if the uncle didn't come back. Everything else could've been explained as the whole village covering up Keichi's murder. Sonozaki dug up the corpse and relocated it, everyone agreed on an alibi for Keichi. Which is why he was in "two" places, just like Rena when police were searching for her.

But Uncle did come back. Keichi never saw him after that, but the following events go beyond what his sick mind could've created.

As for what Rena thought afterwards about murders - I don't remember for certain what you are referencing. How Keichi told her that it wasn't the ideal solution?

[fllthdcrb]

Originally posted by Kanaev:

I'll jump right to (B) - the theory of them creating an alibi for Keichi would've worked, if the uncle didn't come back. Everything else could've been explained as the whole village covering up Keichi's murder. Sonozaki dug up the corpse and relocated it, everyone agreed on an alibi for Keichi. Which is why he was in "two" places, just like Rena when police were searching for her.

Okay, good. You did remember that much.

But Uncle did come back. Keichi never saw him after that, but the following events go beyond what his sick mind could've created.

No, he didn't come back. That's the thing. You might think, because Satoko said he returned, that he actually did return. (And I think there were some other things that hinted at at it too.) But you have to realize, she is pretty sick herself. In this arc, we find out she's in L5 of Hinamizawa Syndrome, wherein she may be unable to tell reality and delusion apart. And given that, in "Tatarigoroshi-hen", Teppei abuses her to the point where she freaks out when Keiichi pets her head and completely breaks down, it's no stretch to think she's in a really bad way after that and her testimony is untrustworthy.

As for what Rena thought afterwards about murders - I don't remember for certain what you are referencing. How Keichi told her that it wasn't the ideal solution?

If you'll recall, after they bury the bodies, Mion finds out the forestry service will be doing things in the area that could potentially uncover the bodies, so she gets her family to help in moving them to a better location, of course without telling Rena because they want her to be burdened by her actions as little as possible. And just as happened with Keiichi, Rena goes to dig up the bodies later and finds them missing, setting off her paranoia. Even after Keiichi explains what the Sonozakis did, Rena is unable to just accept it and believes Mion betrayed her.

Now, it's true that Rena never seems to believe that her victims somehow came back to life or that she somehow killed the wrong people (or at least, I don't recall that), but there is still a similar paranoid state of mind at work. It's after this point that she descends deeper and deeper into delusions, just as Keiichi did.

The point is, with the above in mind and "Tsumihoroboshi-hen" as a hint, the most reasonable explanation is:

1. Keiichi really did kill Teppei.
   
2. His friends found out about it and enlisted the help of the Sonozakis to move the body, without telling him, and made up an alibi that he was at the festival.
   
3. Keiichi, already being in an advanced stage of Hinamizawa Syndrome due to the extreme stress of murdering someone and thus unable to think properly, misinterpreted this as them actually seeing him at the festival. (Incidentally, I think it may not have been the smartest thing to do all that behind his back, which is why it's important in "Tsumihoroboshi-hen" for them to actually talk to Rena about it, which may have contributed to saving her in the end.)
   
4. Satoko, being at L5 despite seeming normal without a stressful environment, and being abused by her uncle—the worst thing that can happen to anyone in that condition—hallucinated that he was still around even when he wasn't.

Now, I know I probably missed some other details that seemed to point at Teppei being alive, so feel free to bring them up, and I'll see if I can address them.

[velie]

Originally posted by Kanaev:

Originally posted by fllthdcrb:

Yes, this. And what else happened related to these murders? Her friends talked to her about them, which didn't happen in "Tatarigoroshi-hen", but other than that, think about what they did, and her response to it. We know she really did kill them, but what were her thoughts later on?

As for point (B), something similar also happened to Rena, though maybe you forgot that.

I'll jump right to (B) - the theory of them creating an alibi for Keichi would've worked, if the uncle didn't come back. Everything else could've been explained as the whole village covering up Keichi's murder. Sonozaki dug up the corpse and relocated it, everyone agreed on an alibi for Keichi. Which is why he was in "two" places, just like Rena when police were searching for her.

But Uncle did come back. Keichi never saw him after that, but the following events go beyond what his sick mind could've created.

He didn't, that was just Satoko's delusion

[Kanaev]

Originally posted by fllthdcrb:

Originally posted by Kanaev:

I'll jump right to (B) - the theory of them creating an alibi for Keichi would've worked, if the uncle didn't come back. Everything else could've been explained as the whole village covering up Keichi's murder. Sonozaki dug up the corpse and relocated it, everyone agreed on an alibi for Keichi. Which is why he was in "two" places, just like Rena when police were searching for her.

Okay, good. You did remember that much.

But Uncle did come back. Keichi never saw him after that, but the following events go beyond what his sick mind could've created.

No, he didn't come back. That's the thing. You might think, because Satoko said he returned, that he actually did return. (And I think there were some other things that hinted at at it too.) But you have to realize, she is pretty sick herself. In this arc, we find out she's in L5 of Hinamizawa Syndrome, wherein she may be unable to tell reality and delusion apart. And given that, in "Tatarigoroshi-hen", Teppei abuses her to the point where she freaks out when Keiichi pets her head and completely breaks down, it's no stretch to think she's in a really bad way after that and her testimony is untrustworthy.

As for what Rena thought afterwards about murders - I don't remember for certain what you are referencing. How Keichi told her that it wasn't the ideal solution?

If you'll recall, after they bury the bodies, Mion finds out the forestry service will be doing things in the area that could potentially uncover the bodies, so she gets her family to help in moving them to a better location, of course without telling Rena because they want her to be burdened by her actions as little as possible. And just as happened with Keiichi, Rena goes to dig up the bodies later and finds them missing, setting off her paranoia. Even after Keiichi explains what the Sonozakis did, Rena is unable to just accept it and believes Mion betrayed her.

Now, it's true that Rena never seems to believe that her victims somehow came back to life or that she somehow killed the wrong people, but there is still a similar paranoid state of mind at work. It's after this point that she descends deeper and deeper into delusions, just as Keiichi did.

The point is, with the above in mind and "Tsumihoroboshi-hen" as a hint, the most reasonable explanation is:

1. Keiichi really did kill Teppei.
   
2. His friends found out about it and enlisted the help of the Sonozakis to move the body, without telling him, and made up an alibi that he was at the festival.
   
3. Keiichi, already being in an advanced stage of Hinamizawa Syndrome due to the extreme stress of murdering someone and thus unable to think properly, misinterpreted this as them actually seeing him at the festival. (Incidentally, I think it may not have been the smartest thing to do all that behind his back, which is why it's important in "Tsumihoroboshi-hen" for them to actually talk to Rena about it, which may have contributed to saving her in the end.)
   
4. Satoko, being at L5 despite seeming normal without a stressful environment, and being abused by her uncle—the worst thing that can happen to anyone in that condition—hallucinated that he was still around even when he wasn't.

Now, I know I probably missed some other details that seemed to point at Teppei being alive, so feel free to bring them up, and I'll see if I can address them.

Oooh, thank you! As soon as I started reading the second paragraph - I understood everything. Yes, she could've imagined her uncle still being there with L5.

Glad to see my favourite (standalone) arc wasn't destroyed by a plot hole.

[orian34]

Actually, for the body moving point, there is something else to take into consideration: His friends weren't there during the night he killed Teppei, but do you know who was the first person to find him? Yes, and do you know who is working for her? Yes, and do you know who Keiichi has gone to confess? With all those, it's quite possible they could've went to recover the body to hide it somewhere safer because it would be troubling if the police were to find a body related to the syndrome. They do have stronger surveillance during the festival period, and honestly, I don't think that it was Mion here. Although she knew and did the fake alibi to protect him, they had little time to take care of the body. Let's not forget that in tsumi, she already knew where it was.

All in all, the both are possible, but I lean towards the mountain dogs for logical reasons.

[fllthdcrb]

Originally posted by orian34:

Actually, for the body moving point, there is something else to take into consideration: His friends weren't there during the night he killed Teppei, but do you know who was the first person to find him? Yes, and do you know who is working for her? Yes, and do you know who Keiichi has gone to confess? With all those, it's quite possible they could've went to recover the body to hide it somewhere safer because it would be troubling if the police were to find a body related to the syndrome. They do have stronger surveillance during the festival period, and honestly, I don't think that it was Mion here. Although she knew and did the fake alibi to protect him, they had little time to take care of the body. Let's not forget that in tsumi, she already knew where it was.

All in all, the both are possible, but I lean towards the mountain dogs for logical reasons.

Hmm. Interesting. That is quite possible, now that you mention it.

[a_sa_ro]

Originally posted by orian34:

Actually, for the body moving point, there is something else to take into consideration: His friends weren't there during the night he killed Teppei, but do you know who was the first person to find him? Yes, and do you know who is working for her? Yes, and do you know who Keiichi has gone to confess? With all those, it's quite possible they could've went to recover the body to hide it somewhere safer because it would be troubling if the police were to find a body related to the syndrome. They do have stronger surveillance during the festival period, and honestly, I don't think that it was Mion here. Although she knew and did the fake alibi to protect him, they had little time to take care of the body. Let's not forget that in tsumi, she already knew where it was.

All in all, the both are possible, but I lean towards the mountain dogs for logical reasons.

This is possible, but I lean more towards the explanation of Mion and the Sonozakis doing it.

1. In other arcs, Mion is mentioned as digging up or hiding bodies, while the Yamainu never are. They're more into kidnapping people and leaving no trace of them. So it's more consistent for the character who does those things to protect her friends to do it than the one who is never mentioned doing so.
   
2. In Minagoroshi it's hinted that, while Keiichi thought in Tatarigoroshi that no one knew that he killed Teppei, at least his intentions were no secret. When Keiichi comes up with the plan to save Satoko, both his mom and Chie tell him they thought he would be trying to pull a perfect crime and kill Teppei in the dark. It makes sense that his mom would tell him that, but Chie? The only way Keiichi interacted with Chie was to ask her what she was going to save Satoko from her uncle. He never gave her any clue that he thought of killing him. However, if Mion explained to everyone in the classroom what happened and brought Chie in, it would make more sense.
   
3. Takano and the Yamainu don't seem to be extremely careful with bodies. After all, she allowed a body that had been dead for over 24 hours to pose as her dead body. If anything, I think Takano would have been extremely amused that Keiichi killed Teppei on Watanagashi night and let the body there so the police would be more distracted in the investigation and not pay attention to the Irie Institute or to her disappearance/death.

Still, it's a strong theory that makes a lot of sense. Something I just remembered is that Takano says that "dogs can find bodies that aren't dug too deep"... and these are the Mountain Dogs. Or maybe I'm just reaching with that lol.