The case against easy mode and health bars

[MilesZew]

(sorry for this massive wall of text)

first of all, I'd like to preface this by reminding people that this is just an opinion, and to ask people to remain civil in the comments (debate peoples ideas, don't attack the person)

ok, so here's the rebuttal to the major broad-scale argument I see on this page a lot:

gatekeeping:
People overuse the term gatekeeping a lot. Gatekeeping is wanting to prevent people the *opportunity* to play a game due to some external factor, it's not wanting a feature (such as difficulty) that will end up causing less players to experience something in the game. In the end, team cherry is trying to make a specific type of game, that will only be enjoyed by certain people, not a hand holdy casual game (and if you want to call that gatekeeping, then maybe it's not such a bad thing)

an easy way to show why conflating gatekeeping with difficulty is wrong is to apply it to hollow knight: path of pain? gatekeeping, most players can't do it; radiance? gatekeeping because a lot of players won't complete it; hornet? gatekeeping because a few casual players won't get past her; requiring the use of a controller or a keyboard and mouse? gatekeeping because some people aren't familiar with those

my solution to players who want to see the story and cut scenes without doing the challenges: use a mod, team cherry doesn't have to do all the work

ok, now to the actual content of this post:

easy mode:
1. balancing issues

It's practically impossible to properly balance a game with multiple difficulties, because all the bosses are designed an tested for one difficulty, thus an easy mode boss would not only be easier, but also just feel weird (ex. movement pressures are no longer there, or the boss is easily defeated just by tanking hits)

2. doesn't fit hollow knight
this argument is twofold: the first is that hollow knight's mechanics normally have at least some lose lore connection, even if it doesn't make total sense, which adds to the immersion of the game, an easy mode would be fairly difficult to implement in a semi-lore connected way
my second argument is that most hollow knight mechanics are very unarbitrary, and not continuous: pale ore for a major nail upgrade, spells have a single normal version and another upgraded version that can be found somewhere else, etc. HK doesn't have any gradual upgrades or health increases. Easy mode would most likely feel very random and arbitrary with no real reason to it

3. detracts from achievement
you can always just get a mod for a game and whiz through it, but there's a special kind of accomplishment that comes with beating a challenge in the base game; adding easy mode to the base game would detract from the accomplishment of the normal mode (I'm absolutely not against people making an easy mode mod tho)

in the end, if TC adds an easy mode... oh well, I don't care that much, the above might make it seem like I care a lot about if easy mode is added or not, but I just wanted to provide a structured argument against (same goes for health bars, it's not a massive game changing decision that will completely alter my perspective on the game, although health bars do matter to me more than easy mode does)

health bars:

1. doesn't fit the game
all the arguments that apply to easy mode also apply here, also, by nature, health bars cover a lot of the screen and wouldn't mesh as well with the background as the normal UI does, but this is only a minor point

2. significantly changes the way you play
for example: play safer when boss has lot's of health, mash & tank when boss is low. It also by extension affects moment pressures based on whether or not you think you're about to kill the boss. Also also, based on what I've seen in hollow knight, tanking is a very effective strategy, and thus health bars would unusually affect the boss fight in the players favour

3. removes an element of the boss fight
part of a hollow knight boss fight is learning the patterns, and getting an intuition for the health of a boss. but really, the most important thing imo is the fact that hollow knight boss fights are tense right up to end, and always get your heart racing when you know you're close, but you don't know exactly when you'll kill the boss, and then the sudden sense of relief when in the end you defeat the boss

anyways, that's my argument, feel free to disagree in the comments

[Danikileitor]

I disagree to disagree, nice post.

[Melodia]

Originally posted by MilesZew:

It's practically impossible to properly balance a game with multiple difficulties,

Many game have done it perfectly fine. It's far from "practically impossible".

Originally posted by MilesZew:

3. detracts from achievement
you can always just get a mod for a game and whiz through it, but there's a special kind of accomplishment that comes with beating a challenge in the base game

That still doesn't make sense. How does someone else's lack of accomplishment in beating it in the normal but able to in easy detract from your accomplishment?

[Melodia]

What is 'legitimate'? How does their victory, on a lower difficulty, invalidate yours? Why is it so important to you that people can't win at a lower difficulty level? No one is going around procaliming they are a god gamer because they beat some game on easy difficulty.

[lieutenantkirtar]

They already tried out variable difficulty with the Godmaster content.

[lieutenantkirtar]

Easy mode is ok if the difficulty is where you want it to be but not ok if it is where others want it to be?

[Melodia]

Originally posted by MilesZew:

also the variable difficulty was harder, not easier, which is better because easier could possibly completely break the way you approach the boss (ex. just tank every hit), whereas harder only forces you to play more carefully and better

Again, WHY is this an issue? Why does it MATTER if it 'breaks the way you approach a boss'? The whole point of easy difficulty is that it's, ya know, easy.

Originally posted by lieutenantkirtar:

Easy mode is ok if the difficulty is where you want it to be but not ok if it is where others want it to be?

But of course. We can't have the dirty casuals enjoying things now can we?

[Melodia]

Originally posted by MilesZew:

all of my arguments have had reasonable reasons and you're free to debate them, but don't straw man me.

You think they are reasonable, I think they aren't. Your arguments boil down to 'easy mode is bad because people can beat them without being as good as someone who can beat it on normal'.....which is exactly the point of an easy mode. It's like saying fast food is bad because you don't have to cook it yourself.

Here's a good video on the subject
https://youtu.be/nIWivb-8C1w

[Gwyn]

Lets just be honest - those, who ask for "easy mode" are actually asking for "cheat mode" - a mode that will allow them to ignore game mechanics and rules (outdamage bosses, beat everything on first try).

Why is it bad?

Because lots of people, who can beat the game properly and get much more joy from it, will trick themself by changing difficulty settings to "easy mode" as soon, as they'll die 1 time to a boss...
The first time you fight a hard boss in games like dark souls, it may feel like fighting irresistible wall. But if you don't have option to "give up and cheese", you'll try it again and again, untill you win.

Because of "easy mode", they'll never know, how good it is to learn and beat that boss properly, they'll never know, how skillfull they can be and that a "wall" is actually a door and all they needed is just to find a key.

And if you're one of minorities, who can't remember attacks, and if you care only about story and visuals, why not just "play" the game on youtube, or install some immortality mods?...

[Melodia]

Originally posted by Gwyn:

Lets just be honest - those, who ask for "easy mode" are actually asking for "cheat mode" - a mode that will allow them to ignore game mechanics and rules (outdamage bosses, beat everything on first try).

Why is it bad?

Because lots of people, who can beat the game properly and get much more joy from it, will trick themself by changing difficulty settings to "easy mode" as soon, as they'll die 1 time to a boss...
The first time you fight a hard boss in games like dark souls, it may feel like fighting irresistible wall. But if you don't have option to "give up and cheese", you'll try it again and again, untill you win.

Because of "easy mode", they'll never know, how good it is to learn and beat that boss properly, they'll never know, how skillfull they can be and that a "wall" is actually a door and all they needed is just to find a key.

I just have to ask....so what? Why does it matter to you if other people do this? How does it affect your life that someone experienced a game in a different way?

Saying " you'll try it again and again, untill you win."....except that's simply not true of everyone. The 'wall' for some people is actually one that isn't breakable. Not everyone is gifted enough to be able to overcome it. It's a simple fact of life. Hell for many people it's an accessibility issue and not even a skill one.
Now obviously the developers have zero obligation to add anything. But the argument that "it's bad because you won't feel as accomplished" is absolutely ridiculous, because at the end of the day, video games (for most people at least) are about fun and a lot of people DON"T find the idea of spending two hours doing the same thing over and over just to progress in a game fun. Video games should not be like learning an instrument.

[Melodia]

Originally posted by MilesZew:

forgive me if I don't watch a video that has nothing to do with hollow knight in a debate that is very specific to hollow knight

Except it's not? I mean, we're talking about a general concept here. Hollow Knight isn't some unique one of a kind game no matter how much some special snowflakes seem to think it is.

It's also interesting that you've brought up modding before -- there's a mod-based easy mode for HK that I think actually solves the so-called 'problem' of easy mode balence pretty well. Here's the specifics:
- All charm costs are reduced by 1
- Sitting at a bench gives 2 free lifeblood masks
- Nail damage is increased, using the formula dmg = 8 + 5 * upgrades. (compare: base game gives dmg = 5 + 4 * upgrades)
- Soul collection is increased by 6 per nail hit (with no charms, 2 hits now allows a spell or focus)
- Focus time is reduced by half
- Dying no longer loses geo or causes a shade to spawn

Note what it doesn't have? It doesn't have being able to tank more. It gives the player a somewhat minor power upgrade but bosses still don't die quickly. Rather, you simply get more resources in what you can do, don't have to worry about the dillema of healing vs not AS MUCH because of reduced charge time, and you're not punished for doing bad (which if even just THAT were removed would make HK a lot better IMO).
Maybe it's a bit much but regardless you still have to 'beat the boss properly'. You can't just talk your way through a boss especially the later ones.

[Gwyn]

Originally posted by Melodia:

I just have to ask....so what? Why does it matter to you if other people do this? How does it affect your life that someone experienced a game in a different way?

I think, I explained well why it is matter. Because many people will skip mechanics and all fun NOT because they are bad at game or because they don't like any challenge, but because they'll overestimate, how hard the boss is or because they'll get salty after 1st lose. This WILL ruin a lot of fun for many players. Why do I personally care if other people have fun with the game or not? I don't think a person need a reason to wish other people having fun with a game. + if a lots of people having fun with the game, the popularity of that game goes up and more similar games are done. And everyone happy
In the past, when I playd Dark Souls first time, before I understood what kind of a game it was and knowing nothing about it... If it had difficulty settings - I would just put an easy mode, speedrun content and never would get so much positive emotions from that series. And there are a lots of people who would do the same. That is another reason why I care if people will learn the game or will just cheat on it.

And why do YOU care? As I said before, if you don't like to learn mechanics and care only about story/visuals - you can always play it on youtube or use some mods.

The game not having easy mode will not prevent you from enjoying visuals and story at all. (youtube, mods/cheats) - everyone happy
BUT the game having easy mode will affect all people who will overestimate boss difficulty based on first impression and will put easy mode. - a lots of people not happy.

[Melodia]

Originally posted by Gwyn:

The game not having easy mode will not prevent you from enjoying visuals and story at all. (youtube, mods/cheats) - everyone happy
BUT the game having easy mode will affect all people who will overestimate boss difficulty based on first impression and will put easy mode. - a lots of people not happy.

So....you somehow have knowledge of how everyone feels? Huh.

[DynamoX]

Originally posted by Melodia:

I just have to ask....so what? Why does it matter to you if other people do this? How does it affect your life that someone experienced a game in a different way?

It matters, because most people who are afraid of being defeated in games, and with that by just a assumption they would undermine themselves and ther possible skill (doesn't matter on what level) in the game and even before starting the game, they would lower the difficulty just to avoid the consequences of a failure (backtracking, getting back currency, retry boss fight) which are part of understanding, improving, adapting themselves. Personally I think games should just have default difficulty and eventually higher one, so the players would start the game on a same level as everyone and they might find, that obstacles the game presents to them are not as hard as they thought would be.

Originally posted by Melodia:

Saying " you'll try it again and again, untill you win."....except that's simply not true of everyone.

Well, nobody forces them to do it. But it's an encouragment from other people, because it's better to try more times (it can be even 100 or more) than giving up after some. That depends on the players and their individual perception of game's certain challange.

Originally posted by Melodia:

The 'wall' for some people is actually one that isn't breakable. Not everyone is gifted enough to be able to overcome it. It's a simple fact of life. Hell for many people it's an accessibility issue and not even a skill one.

The hardest content in Hollow Knight is optional. The base game doesn't have any imbreakable walls which are impossibe to beat. I agree some are hard, but they are nothing in comparison to for example 10 lvls of GPZ, Absolute Radiance, doing all bindings, or Hall of Gods. I think most people are able to complete the game, but that require some patience, adaptation, and if they fail there is nothing wrong with that. But I disagree that developers should modify their game to please some of potential group of players, who have many different opinions on what game should or shouldn't have, what is important and what is not, and how difficulty should be changed for them so they could easily complete the game without much effort.

Originally posted by Melodia:

Now obviously the developers have zero obligation to add anything.

Correct.

Originally posted by Melodia:

But the argument that "it's bad because you won't feel as accomplished" is absolutely ridiculous,

They may feel the accomplishment, but they should know that this is not a default presentation of challange that the developer has provided, and they have chosen to fight a weaker variant of normal boss.

Originally posted by Melodia:

because at the end of the day, video games (for most people at least) are about fun and a lot of people DON"T find the idea of spending two hours doing the same thing over and over just to progress in a game fun. Video games should not be like learning an instrument.

Not all games are for everyone. And games (certain genres) don't focus only on providing to the player a nice, fun time without any tests through progression. If there isn't any challange then most of the content have less value. Hollow Knight is great because in order to explore new areas, discover new lore, NPCs, quest you had to earn them, often by beating certain challange. Base game is well balaced and rewards for overcoming them are satisfying.

Developers simply cannot please everyone. Certainly not without sacrificing their vison of the game that they would like to give to the players.

[Melodia]

Originally posted by DynamoX:

Developers simply cannot please everyone. Certainly not without sacrificing their vison of the game that they would like to give to the players.

True. Which is why as I said, the devs have no obligation to anything. At the same time, if they WERE to want to add an easy mode in, that wouldn't be bad and to say 'it doesn't work in this game because MAH ACCOMPLISHMENTS' is just silly.

[Gabriel]

Honestly I didn't read because it's just a matter of having it disabled by default.