Improvements you would like to see?

[Tharmund]

Title says it.

I don't really expect to see these things happening, but some changes that I would really like to see, compared to the design of hollow knight:

- less stuff behind breakable walls and no invisible breakable walls (nothing ruins exploration more than having to scan everything for cracks and hit every suspicious corner, or worse, use a guide).

- Less "lets just add more flying enemies/hazards" as a way to increase boss difficulty (this is just a really cheap strategy always, harder bosses are cool, especially when they are not poorly done).

- less RNG projectiles and more pattern based attacks (RNG is not really a issue on HK, this is kind of a personal taste).

What about you?

[Agenta]

Raine eredeti hozzászólása:

Locking achievements/endings behind the pantheon of hallownest was awful.
It's horrible artificial difficulty that needs a LOT of grinding and mastery. it would require hundreds of hours of mind-numbing reptitive practice against the same few bosses just for that one achievement.

It's not fun.

It's not fair.

If (and they undoubtedly will) have something similar in silksong. Don't tie endings to it.. don't tie steam achievements to it. maybe something ingame that would be fun to screw around with. some kind of debug mode where you can change anything from stats, items, geo, npc progress and quests, untick bosses as being defeated etc.

That sounds like a fun and fair reward for having 200% done the hardest things the game could ask of you, that even players who are great at the game couldn't do without incredible dedication.

I'm actually more irritated that they deeply ripped Godmaster from the base game, and yet are making it seem like Embrace the Void is the ending that the Hornet DLC is based on, and Hornet DLC is a sequel to Hollow Knight itself, which means although Godmaster is the most seperated DLC in the game, lore-wise, gameplay wise, and enviornment wise, it's also the most important bit of content in the game.

[Pauolo]

Raine eredeti hozzászólása:

Locking achievements/endings behind the pantheon of hallownest was awful.
It's horrible artificial difficulty that needs a LOT of grinding and mastery. it would require hundreds of hours of mind-numbing reptitive practice against the same few bosses just for that one achievement.

It's not fun.

It's not fair.

If (and they undoubtedly will) have something similar in silksong. Don't tie endings to it.. don't tie steam achievements to it. maybe something ingame that would be fun to screw around with. some kind of debug mode where you can change anything from stats, items, geo, npc progress and quests, untick bosses as being defeated etc.

That sounds like a fun and fair reward for having 200% done the hardest things the game could ask of you, that even players who are great at the game couldn't do without incredible dedication.

Getting that ending is not even the hardest thing to accomplish in Godmaster. Also it's not like the rest of the game is easy either. I'd say having 3 speedrun achievements and 2 Steel Soul achievements is more unfair than having to just finish all pantheons, with no requirements on bindings.

Agenta1999 eredeti hozzászólása:

I'm actually more irritated that they deeply ripped Godmaster from the base game, and yet are making it seem like Embrace the Void is the ending that the Hornet DLC is based on, and Hornet DLC is a sequel to Hollow Knight itself, which means although Godmaster is the most seperated DLC in the game, lore-wise, gameplay wise, and enviornment wise, it's also the most important bit of content in the game.

Sealed Siblings aside (obviously), the developers explicitly told they were not choosing a canon ending. And I'm pretty sure Godmaster's content was made after the main production. I don't even get how it has ripped content.

[Agenta]

Pauolo eredeti hozzászólása:

Raine eredeti hozzászólása:

Locking achievements/endings behind the pantheon of hallownest was awful.
It's horrible artificial difficulty that needs a LOT of grinding and mastery. it would require hundreds of hours of mind-numbing reptitive practice against the same few bosses just for that one achievement.

It's not fun.

It's not fair.

If (and they undoubtedly will) have something similar in silksong. Don't tie endings to it.. don't tie steam achievements to it. maybe something ingame that would be fun to screw around with. some kind of debug mode where you can change anything from stats, items, geo, npc progress and quests, untick bosses as being defeated etc.

That sounds like a fun and fair reward for having 200% done the hardest things the game could ask of you, that even players who are great at the game couldn't do without incredible dedication.

Getting that ending is not even the hardest thing to accomplish in Godmaster. Also it's not like the rest of the game is easy either. I'd say having 3 speedrun achievements and 2 Steel Soul achievements is more unfair than having to just finish all pantheons, with no requirements on bindings.

Agenta1999 eredeti hozzászólása:

I'm actually more irritated that they deeply ripped Godmaster from the base game, and yet are making it seem like Embrace the Void is the ending that the Hornet DLC is based on, and Hornet DLC is a sequel to Hollow Knight itself, which means although Godmaster is the most seperated DLC in the game, lore-wise, gameplay wise, and enviornment wise, it's also the most important bit of content in the game.

Sealed Siblings aside (obviously), the developers explicitly told they were not choosing a canon ending. And I'm pretty sure Godmaster's content was made after the main production. I don't even get how it has ripped content.

I meant Godmaster's content feels ripped from the game itself, unlike Grimm Troupe, Hidden Dreams, and Lifeblood. Not that it was content cut from the base game.

Keep in mind that Silksong is a sequel, as well as the immense amount of foreshadowing via the Embrace the Void cutscene. Sequels nearly require a canon ending to be chosen, unless you want the story to be super vague or carry over your choices from the previous game.

[Pauolo]

Agenta1999 eredeti hozzászólása:

I meant Godmaster's content feels ripped from the game itself, unlike Grimm Troupe, Hidden Dreams, and Lifeblood. Not that it was content cut from the base game.

Keep in mind that Silksong is a sequel, as well as the immense amount of foreshadowing via the Embrace the Void cutscene. Sequels nearly require a canon ending to be chosen, unless you want the story to be super vague or carry over your choices from the previous game.

Whatever you're trying to say, that's not what ripped mean. /:

And no, you don't need to set canon events for a sequel. See BioShock 2 for example, it doesn't state which ending of Bio1 was canon.
The only thing that needs to be known about Hollow Knight is that the Infection was finally contained or destroyed. This robs Hornet of her purpose in Hallownest, since either the new vessel cannot be broken, or the Radiance no longer exists. Choose your ending, the consequences are still the same, they all excuse Hornet's absence from her old duty.

Also quite frankly, that foreshadowing just means the Hollow Knight was freed from his fate instead of returning to the Void. That doesn't mean he'll have a role in the sequel.

[Agenta]

Pauolo eredeti hozzászólása:

Agenta1999 eredeti hozzászólása:

I meant Godmaster's content feels ripped from the game itself, unlike Grimm Troupe, Hidden Dreams, and Lifeblood. Not that it was content cut from the base game.

Keep in mind that Silksong is a sequel, as well as the immense amount of foreshadowing via the Embrace the Void cutscene. Sequels nearly require a canon ending to be chosen, unless you want the story to be super vague or carry over your choices from the previous game.

Whatever you're trying to say, that's not what ripped mean. /:

And no, you don't need to set canon events for a sequel. See BioShock 2 for example, it doesn't state which ending of Bio1 was canon.
The only thing that needs to be known about Hollow Knight is that the Infection was finally contained or destroyed. This robs Hornet of her purpose in Hallownest, since either the new vessel cannot be broken, or the Radiance no longer exists. Choose your ending, the consequences are still the same, they all excuse Hornet's absence from her old duty.

Also quite frankly, that foreshadowing just means the Hollow Knight was freed from his fate instead of returning to the Void. That doesn't mean he'll have a role in the sequel.

First of all, in comparison to Hidden Dreams, Grimm Troupe, and Lifeblood, Godmaster is firmly seperated from the rest of HK because of the minimal interactions and new content added to the actual world of the game in the update. All we really got was some new dialouge with a few characters, the Junk Heap (which is an area you will only go to to access Godhome), and a new part of the Coliseum or Fools that doesn't really add any new lore to the Coliseum. Everything else was Godmaster. Grimm Troupe and Lifeblood interwove their content with the base game, to an extent that you might think it was part of the base game (I certainly thought Dreamgate was part of the base-game when I first got it).

Second, that wasn't Hollow Knight in Embrace the Void. It was the Knight. You can tell because of the Nailsmith saying that there is only 1 Pure Nail in existence, and the shade we see at the end is clearly holding a lance with the same styling of the Pure Nail. It might actually be the Pure Vessel though, as he holds a similar lance. But the Hollow Knight does not hold a lance in that style based on my knowledge.

Third, the foreshadowing in Embrace the Void shows a lot more then just "Infection is gone". Godseeker being consumed by the Void and it spreading throughout Hallownest (if you don't give her the Flower), or the Delicate Flower absorbing the Void to prevent it from spreading (which raises questions about the Flower itself, and that isn't even considering the dialouge you get if you give the Flower to the White Lady). We also still haven't gotten a true answer about the Pale King and his whereabouts, and isn't even considering, IDK, THE SHADE LORD?

There is also the credits message "Congrats on achieving this great feat, blah blah blah, we'll see you soon on the road ahead".

Fourth, the reason the Bioshock 2 example works is that 2's plot can still happen no matter what ending Bioshock 1 has. Hollow Knight now has 3 endings that could lead to the sequel that all cannot coexist. Those being Embrace the Void (no flower), Embrace the Flower, and Dream No More. There is also The Hollow Knight, but I consider that the weaker option, but it's still an option.

[Pauolo]

Agenta1999 eredeti hozzászólása:

First of all, in comparison to Hidden Dreams, Grimm Troupe, and Lifeblood, Godmaster is firmly seperated from the rest of HK because of the minimal interactions and new content added to the actual world of the game in the update. All we really got was some new dialouge with a few characters, the Junk Heap (which is an area you will only go to to access Godhome), and a new part of the Coliseum or Fools that doesn't really add any new lore to the Coliseum. Everything else was Godmaster. Grimm Troupe and Lifeblood interwove their content with the base game, to an extent that you might think it was part of the base game (I certainly thought Dreamgate was part of the base-game when I first got it).

The Grimm Troupe required you to go collect flames throughout the world, just as Godmaster requires you to seek and defeat bosses. The Hall of Gods even has hints as to where you can go look for them. Also Lifeblood was more a quality of life update than the addition of a new quest. The Hive and its rewards were already present in the main game, it just lacked a boss.
But yeah, the words you were looking for was lack of seamless integration. Yet, the Godseeker's quest is as much integrated into the lore as the Grimm Ritual. They are both groups of outsiders interloping with the game's narrative for their own ends, regardless of Hallownest's fate.

Agenta1999 eredeti hozzászólása:

Second, that wasn't Hollow Knight in Embrace the Void. It was the Knight. You can tell because of the Nailsmith saying that there is only 1 Pure Nail in existence, and the shade we see at the end is clearly holding a lance with the same styling of the Pure Nail. It might actually be the Pure Vessel though, as he holds a similar lance. But the Hollow Knight does not hold a lance in that style based on my knowledge.

You got the Nailsmith's dialogue wrong: "In only your weapon have I seen such potential. Finally, I behold the majesty of a Pure Nail."
That doesn't mean there's only one Pure Nail in existence, just that he achieved one and contemplated one for the first time. Also the nail on the Knight's sprite doesn't change appearance when you upgrade it. That only happens in the inventory menu. Meaning you can't tell if the Hollow Knight's nail is a pure nail or not.

Agenta1999 eredeti hozzászólása:

Third, the foreshadowing in Embrace the Void shows a lot more then just "Infection is gone". Godseeker being consumed by the Void and it spreading throughout Hallownest (if you don't give her the Flower), or the Delicate Flower absorbing the Void to prevent it from spreading (which raises questions about the Flower itself, and that isn't even considering the dialouge you get if you give the Flower to the White Lady). We also still haven't gotten a true answer about the Pale King and his whereabouts, and isn't even considering, IDK, THE SHADE LORD?

There is also the credits message "Congrats on achieving this great feat, blah blah blah, we'll see you soon on the road ahead".

I don't know what your point is, regarding this discussion on Godmaster. The developers said they deliberately didn't write any complex lore for the game, and to not expect answers for everything. It's like trying to tie Mr. Mushroom to the lore as some very important character. Hes most likely just an avatar of the developers having some meta fun. Just learn to appreciate the story as you'd like, not what you think the developers meant with certitude.

Agenta1999 eredeti hozzászólása:

Fourth, the reason the Bioshock 2 example works is that 2's plot can still happen no matter what ending Bioshock 1 has. Hollow Knight now has 3 endings that could lead to the sequel that all cannot coexist. Those being Embrace the Void (no flower), Embrace the Flower, and Dream No More. There is also The Hollow Knight, but I consider that the weaker option, but it's still an option.

So far there is no indication of any link between Hallownest and Pharloom but the Weavers. So yes, the end of the first game can remain vague. For what we currently know, there is no repercussion on the sequel but freeing Hornet of her obligations towards the sealing of the Radiance.

[<Username Not Found>]

(I feel like the original intent of this thread has been lost a little)

I'd personally love to see the same *amazing* exploration of the original HK... hidden-break-away-walls and all.

I also want a simple base attack from the Hornet. I was a little concerned to see that she doesn't do many attacks without dashing a short distance and/or using silk. So, I hope, like the knight, we'll see a neat slash or something as an easy way of getting silk. (which she did have in HK, see Hornet Sentinal's pary/slash maneuver.)

[tomw]

I just want team cherry to make the moves involve the down key to be easier to perform. I found myself having difficulties to use the dive and downward slash at the mid-late game. Then when im in path of pain, this problem was extremely annoying.

[dat_potatoe]

Chimera++ eredeti hozzászólása:

- less stuff behind breakable walls and no invisible breakable walls (nothing ruins exploration more than having to scan everything for cracks and hit every suspicious corner, or worse, use a guide).

- Less "lets just add more flying enemies/hazards" as a way to increase boss difficulty (this is just a really cheap strategy always, harder bosses are cool, especially when they are not poorly done).

Uh, hell no? Uncovering secrets was largely the entire point of the first game. I discovered like 90% of the secrets by myself and only looked at guides when I got stumped for the remaining content. And I loved every second of it.

I definitely agree with the second point though. Flying enemies are annoying in a game where you have very few ranged options and none that you can actually aim directly. They "worked" in games like cave story because they at least moved in predictable lines and you had infinite ranged ammo. But here they fly around randomly and constantly fly right outside of attack range when you try to get close. Minion summoning bosses are also just terrible, lazy design. Soul Tyrant made me want to rip my hair out the first time I encountered him, constantly die simply because it was impossible to avoid dodging the boss and the random ads at the same time.

[Tharmund]

dat_potatoe eredeti hozzászólása:

Chimera++ eredeti hozzászólása:

- less stuff behind breakable walls and no invisible breakable walls (nothing ruins exploration more than having to scan everything for cracks and hit every suspicious corner, or worse, use a guide).

- Less "lets just add more flying enemies/hazards" as a way to increase boss difficulty (this is just a really cheap strategy always, harder bosses are cool, especially when they are not poorly done).

Uh, hell no? Uncovering secrets was largely the entire point of the first game. I discovered like 90% of the secrets by myself and only looked at guides when I got stumped for the remaining content. And I loved every second of it.

I definitely agree with the second point though. Flying enemies are annoying in a game where you have very few ranged options and none that you can actually aim directly. They "worked" in games like cave story because they at least moved in predictable lines and you had infinite ranged ammo. But here they fly around randomly and constantly fly right outside of attack range when you try to get close. Minion summoning bosses are also just terrible, lazy design. Soul Tyrant made me want to rip my hair out the first time I encountered him, constantly die simply because it was impossible to avoid dodging the boss and the random ads at the same time.

I also only used a guide for the remaining content at end, but that still feels bad, I like when I can make 100% without guides.

Most secrets In HK are okay, but the map is huge, if you are missing a breakable wall with something meaningful behind, sometimes you are unlikely to find it without a guide, even if you keep coming back to old rooms.

However, what really get me is things like Path of Pain, there aren't cracks on the wall that leads to it, there aren't any hints, I know its just some side content that was added later, but still, this is just ridiculous, its like you need to hit every wall in the game if you want play without a guide, because who knows, maybe there is some secret over there.

About the few ranged options,that is one thing the bothered me on HK, you have fixed set of spells and you can't make a build that does't need to use the nail a lot, the game gives you a lot o customization with the charms, so I can't complain, but more diversity on playstyles would be nice.

[Agenta]

Chimera++ eredeti hozzászólása:

dat_potatoe eredeti hozzászólása:

Uh, hell no? Uncovering secrets was largely the entire point of the first game. I discovered like 90% of the secrets by myself and only looked at guides when I got stumped for the remaining content. And I loved every second of it.

I definitely agree with the second point though. Flying enemies are annoying in a game where you have very few ranged options and none that you can actually aim directly. They "worked" in games like cave story because they at least moved in predictable lines and you had infinite ranged ammo. But here they fly around randomly and constantly fly right outside of attack range when you try to get close. Minion summoning bosses are also just terrible, lazy design. Soul Tyrant made me want to rip my hair out the first time I encountered him, constantly die simply because it was impossible to avoid dodging the boss and the random ads at the same time.

I also only used a guide for the remaining content at end, but that still feels bad, I like when I can make 100% without guides.

Most secrets In HK are okay, but the map is huge, if you are missing a breakable wall with something meaningful behind, sometimes you are unlikely to find it without a guide, even if you keep coming back to old rooms.

However, what really get me is things like Path of Pain, there aren't cracks on the wall that leads to it, there aren't any hints, I know its just some side content that was added later, but still, this is just ridiculous, its like you need to hit every wall in the game if you want play without a guide, because who knows, maybe there is some secret over there.

About the few ranged options,that is one thing the bothered me on HK, you have fixed set of spells and you can't make a build that does't need to use the nail a lot, the game gives you a lot o customization with the charms, so I can't complain, but more diversity on playstyles would be nice.

Path of Pain is so well hidden because it's TC's way of saying "Hey, this area is COMPLETELY OPTIONAL, you DON'T NEED TO DO IT". That and it was hinted at a few times via the stag-station being added to Palace Grounds and a hint in the Grimm Troupe's patch notes about something new in/around the Palace.

Also, it looks like Hornet's new moveset is adding a lot of extra aerial mobility (her throw+dash is a key example), and we have seen new "tools" being added that have some interesting utility/use. So that will likely address the rest of your points.

[Dragon]

Improvements I would like to see:

1. Make the main character talk.

2. Add a quicksave button and a quickload button, both of which can be used at any time.

3. Ban all timed/speedrun Achievements. They are awful and they ruin the game.

4. Have an optional coop mode, like the Cuphead game, for example. One player could be Hornet and the second player could be Hollow Knight, or something like that.

5. Let the coop mode be playable online.

6. Have allied NPCs join in the battles and help you sometimes.

7. Don't make the corners of the screen be all black. Doing that makes the game horrible for people who have monitors with backlight bleeding.

8. Have map markers that tell you a) where to acquire the tools you need and b) where the barriers are that any particular tool is needed to overcome.

[Cheese]

Dragon eredeti hozzászólása:

8. Have map markers that tell you a) where to acquire the tools you need and b) where the barriers are that any particular tool is needed to overcome.

I actively don't want anything even remotely like this.
The first game has more or less the perfect amount of guidance for a Metroidvania, imo.

[Pauolo]

Cheese eredeti hozzászólása:

Dragon eredeti hozzászólása:

8. Have map markers that tell you a) where to acquire the tools you need and b) where the barriers are that any particular tool is needed to overcome.

I actively don't want anything even remotely like this.
The first game has more or less the perfect amount of guidance for a Metroidvania, imo.

I agree. Imho having markers you can place yourself was more fun. It helped to me sidetrack once I got the right tools for some sections.

[Dragon]

Cheese eredeti hozzászólása:

The first game has more or less the perfect amount of guidance for a Metroidvania, imo.

No it doesn't. The first games require you randomly to derp around aimlessly until you eventually, by random happenstance, after tons of wasted time & energy, happen to find which area contains the path with the obstacle that your latest tool allows you to bypass.

This doesn't make make the game better in any way; on the contrary, it makes the game boring, aggravating, and tedious.

And the only alternative to that tedious derping around until you happen to find the correct path, is to look up a walkthrough online, which is also aggravating & tedious.

And since there is disagreement over this point, then it should be another optional setting, so as those who want the pointless tedium can have it by way of them activating it in the Options menu.

But what they shouldn't do is force such aggravating tedium on all players by default, which is exactly what the first game does (and it was a big mistake to do it that way in that game).