3 levels underground and still rotten food

[GeileSockeAltF4]

So i build a room 3 level underground with clay walls, "roof" and ground. but the temp is still above 5°C. What do I do wrong?

[Synapt]

Originally posted by Geruhn:

I built a comparable setup in GM and here are the results:
The difference between Clay and Wood walls is negligible but as mentioned before if you have plain dirt walls the temperature differece is big.
You can see that in the top row and in the bottom row.

Also, everything that's in the cellar raises the temperature, even the stored goods as you see here:

Strangely I noticed -improved- cold storage temps when I replaced all the dirt walls with clay walls, however most of my cold storage ceiling is also native dirt and not flooring so I'm not sure if that impacts it somehow (as most of the people on here seem to be saying the best cold storage medium is to build two levels down with a completely dirt ceiling).

[Wantoomany]

Originally posted by Synapt:

Originally posted by Wantoomany:

Look at the insulation values and the heating value. In my example I had natural ceiling and natural walls. So the insulation values are over 90. The walls are lower then the ceiling due to the doors and most likely the beams. The floor has an insulation value of 10% less simply due to the floor. However, the biggest factor is the heating. The room is producing nearly 18f in heating with absolutely nothing in there but floor, beams, and doors. The more constructed objects you put in the room the more heat you are adding to that room.

Did you replace all the walls with clay? That seemed to be what largely fixed the leaky insulation issues for me on other things. My roofing seems to be the only real source of problem and I'm thinking of fixing that by replacing that little small wooden floor area from my 2nd screenshot to clay and making like an outer-wall stair well instead, but currently waiting for winter to end before doing that lol.

Heck no, dirt has near perfect insulation, clay does not. Why would I replace a perfect insulator with an inferior one?

[Synapt]

Originally posted by Wantoomany:

Originally posted by Synapt:

Did you replace all the walls with clay? That seemed to be what largely fixed the leaky insulation issues for me on other things. My roofing seems to be the only real source of problem and I'm thinking of fixing that by replacing that little small wooden floor area from my 2nd screenshot to clay and making like an outer-wall stair well instead, but currently waiting for winter to end before doing that lol.

Heck no, dirt has near perfect insulation, clay does not. Why would I replace a perfect insulator with an inferior one?

In my game it seemed quite opposite once I replaced all the dirt with clay, which imo also lines up a bit with reality as dry soil really isn't a fantastic insulator. Moist packed soil is but obviously for a sheltered food cellar you don't want moisture, you want dry.

In fact in the US in the early 1900's into mid century, glazed terra-cotta/clay was a very popular basement block used, and you still can see it in a lot of basements today.

[Wantoomany]

I would be willing to bet that if you took a screen shot of your room stats. You wall insulation stat will be far lower then 90%

[KellyR]

Originally posted by Synapt:

Originally posted by Wantoomany:

Heck no, dirt has near perfect insulation, clay does not. Why would I replace a perfect insulator with an inferior one?

In my game it seemed quite opposite once I replaced all the dirt with clay, which imo also lines up a bit with reality as dry soil really isn't a fantastic insulator. Moist packed soil is but obviously for a sheltered food cellar you don't want moisture, you want dry.

In fact in the US in the early 1900's into mid century, glazed terra-cotta/clay was a very popular basement block used, and you still can see it in a lot of basements today.

Actually root cellars were often left deliberately dirt walled specifically to ensure the humidity would be higher. Vegetables stay fresher in a cold and humid cellar than in a cold and dry one.

[Synapt]

Originally posted by KellyR:

Originally posted by Synapt:

In my game it seemed quite opposite once I replaced all the dirt with clay, which imo also lines up a bit with reality as dry soil really isn't a fantastic insulator. Moist packed soil is but obviously for a sheltered food cellar you don't want moisture, you want dry.

In fact in the US in the early 1900's into mid century, glazed terra-cotta/clay was a very popular basement block used, and you still can see it in a lot of basements today.

Actually root cellars were often left deliberately dirt walled specifically to ensure the humidity would be higher. Vegetables stay fresher in a cold and humid cellar than in a cold and dry one.

Yeah but we're not talking purely vegetables as far as long-term goes are we? I usually try to use up my veggies as quick as I can in making meals and booze and then store that lol.

[Synapt]

Originally posted by Wantoomany:

I would be willing to bet that if you took a screen shot of your room stats. You wall insulation stat will be far lower then 90%

Is this in response to me? My wall isolation is 89%, I figured the main penalty from that was because I had two limestone brick pillars in the middle acting as middle points for my ceiling beams.

[Synapt]

Okay so I pissed around a bit, it seems like clay wall vs soil wall is a super negligible impact.

I made a 10x5 cellar 2 levels below (one soil level directly above), with a single entry point fed by a 1x5 hallway with stairs to the surface, door to the 10x5 cellar and a door at the end of the 1x5 hallway.

Plain dirt/soil walls had a wall isolation of 85.4% and clay walls had a wall isolation of 84.2%, so basically just a 1% difference.

That said it seems like flooring has an absolutely bull environment impact.

I made a duplicate 10x5 cellar directly opposite of the hallway, soil walls but with limestone brick flooring. 10x5 Soil floor isolation is 95%, 10x5 limestone brick (and I assume any other type) is 60% isolation. This results in a heating value of nearly 6F degrees more on the brick floor room and a 10-12F degrees higher average room temp.

I'm gonna try to do some deeper digging and see what the level depth changes are.

Edit: So as far as I can tell even down to the very granite level the above all still apply, game definitely needs some reworking of the temperature modeling lol.

[nokith]

The trick is the roof, look the temperature in the room (details) you will see the problem is the ceiling, you must have a level of terrain / or columns above, not another room, I have different rooms at diferent levels for different temperatures (I don´t know if I explained well, english is not native for me). If you want I can take a capture. You must have roof isolation 99%. (edit, sorry I didn´t see the other 2 pages of comments, if i repeat :P )

[Swoop]

Originally posted by KellyR:

and that's what started this entire argument.

Oh this isn't an argument, this is just night-time.

[altomcorp]

Just throwing it out there, no matter how cold it is, food will spoil eventually if your producing to much of it.

[KellyR]

Originally posted by altomcorp:

Just throwing it out there, no matter how cold it is, food will spoil eventually if your producing to much of it.

TBF if you're producing that much you probably aren't bothered by a little spoilage.

[Swoop]

Originally posted by KellyR:

Originally posted by Swoop:

As I said, you only need 1 layer of soil. You don't need more than one layer of soil and you don't need to make sure there's nothing on the surface above your storage area. Anyone who thinks you do is just plain wrong.

That's not the point. The post I made, which you initially responded to, was me telling the OP that what he had done wrong was that he just dug and open pit and built roofing over it--so he had no soil layer for the roof at all--and thought it would work.

You posted saying I was wrong, and that's what started this entire argument.

You're still wrong.

Look:

This is a quick example I just built. Simple house, no windows, thatched roof. As you can see, it's 8.2 degrees outside.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2523331607

Inside, thanks to the clay brazier, it's 19.2 degrees.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2523331637

Down just one level, no soil layer in between, just a limestone floor and 2 wooden beams:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2523331692

And inside the cellar it's 2.2 degrees cos only part of the floor has got tiles, the outside edges are plain dirt, which is causing enough cooling.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2523331737

Note the underground cellar is walled off from the staircase. As long as it's walled off from stairs, cooling works just fine no matter what is above it.

[KellyR]

Just because you got it to 2.2 degrees doesn't mean it wouldn't be cooler if you'd left a soil roof. And the summers get hotter and hotter each year as the game progresses. That storage will eventually be insufficient.

[Swoop]

So you add more uncovered floor at the side to compensate.