Instant death spikes should be the default mode

[Megapal]

After testing and tweaking the difficulty modes I found that the +3 spike level is the only thing that turns the game from sonic, to megaman. without instant death spikes the game is just too fast, doesnt feel megaman.. With instant death spikes? Yeah, it feels like megaman

but for real, what is the point of spikes and pits if they only do 1 damage..... of course I'll take 1 damage to skip over an obstacle lol! Yeah I know 20xx, no instant death spikes either, but this is a whole new game, level design is more like megaman for sure

whatever scientist designed 1 damage spike, I say fire him, he's a quack! we need a spike engineer on standard duty for extra spiky spikes that actually kill things

[JellifiShugo]

Well, in a Roguelite, intsa death spikes seems rather annoying to me. especially considering how many spikes can be placed in levels. (despite 20XX legit being my first Roguelite. with 30XX being the second)

[Megapal]

Originally posted by KirbyToad59:

Well, in a Roguelite, intsa death spikes seems rather annoying to me. especially considering how many spikes can be placed in levels. (despite 20XX legit being my first Roguelite. with 30XX being the second)

the problem is spikes are supposed to make an obstacle dangerous and slow you down, if the spikes only do 1 damage then basically they don't do anything, whats my incentive to not take 1 damage to skip an obstacle, I'm more likely to take more than 1 damage if I spend time thinking too much

[ChanceRat]

Originally posted by megapal:

Originally posted by KirbyToad59:

Well, in a Roguelite, intsa death spikes seems rather annoying to me. especially considering how many spikes can be placed in levels. (despite 20XX legit being my first Roguelite. with 30XX being the second)

the problem is spikes are supposed to make an obstacle dangerous and slow you down, if the spikes only do 1 damage then basically they don't do anything, whats my incentive to not take 1 damage to skip an obstacle, I'm more likely to take more than 1 damage if I spend time thinking too much

Well the fact that 1 hp can be a big difference if you're not getting lucky with cores for lifesteal of some sort. This game already feels like it's asking more from the player than 20XX, instadeath spikes might be pushing it a bit.

[Megapal]

Originally posted by ChanceRat:

Originally posted by megapal:

the problem is spikes are supposed to make an obstacle dangerous and slow you down, if the spikes only do 1 damage then basically they don't do anything, whats my incentive to not take 1 damage to skip an obstacle, I'm more likely to take more than 1 damage if I spend time thinking too much

Well the fact that 1 hp can be a big difference if you're not getting lucky with cores for lifesteal of some sort. This game already feels like it's asking more from the player than 20XX, instadeath spikes might be pushing it a bit.

right now I think if you said you were short on health I'd say you're just not going fast enough, speed skips you over obstacles and gets you to health chest spawns faster, if there is a shortcut that you need to touch spikes to get through vs some puzzle enemy labrynth then I'd say right now the spikes are worth it every time

[JellifiShugo]

Originally posted by megapal:

Originally posted by KirbyToad59:

Well, in a Roguelite, intsa death spikes seems rather annoying to me. especially considering how many spikes can be placed in levels. (despite 20XX legit being my first Roguelite. with 30XX being the second)

the problem is spikes are supposed to make an obstacle dangerous and slow you down, if the spikes only do 1 damage then basically they don't do anything, whats my incentive to not take 1 damage to skip an obstacle, I'm more likely to take more than 1 damage if I spend time thinking too much

Well, imo, Spikes not being insta death by default makes the game more accessable. and, if you want insta death spikes, just turn on the entropy condtion. not everyone would like spikes being insta death by default

[Megapal]

Originally posted by KirbyToad59:

Originally posted by megapal:

the problem is spikes are supposed to make an obstacle dangerous and slow you down, if the spikes only do 1 damage then basically they don't do anything, whats my incentive to not take 1 damage to skip an obstacle, I'm more likely to take more than 1 damage if I spend time thinking too much

Well, imo, Spikes not being insta death by default makes the game more accessable. and, if you want insta death spikes, just turn on the entropy condtion. not everyone would like spikes being insta death by default

If not instadeath then they could be 2-3 damage instead of 1, I just think 1 damage on spikes doesn't really encourage you to play properly, spikes are about as dangerous as a flap except the damage can be used to skip an obstacle. Well maybe if the spikes did more damage you could hit some smart gameplay like in megaman, ramming an enemy so you get a free spike walk, now that's emergent strategy, it might make people feel smart for thinking it up, the static 1 damage spike is very straightforward and doesn't make you think any

oh yeah and maybe 1 damage is more accessible, but at the cost of what? I think a bit of fun, there is real risk and reward if spikes are actually threatening, it's the best way to say "yeah you got a lot of health, but regardless this is going to be hard"

[Nolo Contendere]

Originally posted by megapal:

oh yeah and maybe 1 damage is more accessible, but at the cost of what?

literally nothing. you want insta-death spikes from megaman (or megaman zero for some of us), you got 'em. you wanna easy breezy time (like using the cyber elf from megaman zero), you got it.

aren't customizable difficulty modifiers great?

[Megapal]

Originally posted by Nolo Contendere:

Originally posted by megapal:

oh yeah and maybe 1 damage is more accessible, but at the cost of what?

literally nothing. you want insta-death spikes from megaman (or megaman zero for some of us), you got 'em. you wanna easy breezy time (like using the cyber elf from megaman zero), you got it.

aren't customizable difficulty modifiers great?

non-threatening spikes aren't fun, here we're basically showing a new player the game and their first experience is too easy to be fun. Instead of "woops I fell in a pit" they should be thinking "how can I get across this pit" or "I should be careful around the spikes next time". It would make more sense to turn spike damage down and reduces the rewards you get, dull spikes to be a thing you turn on when you dont want to try or challenge yourself in any way. the game can have tons of customization to difficulty but at the end of the day the first thing people are gonna see if the default which is what matters

[Nolo Contendere]

Originally posted by megapal:

Originally posted by Nolo Contendere:

literally nothing. you want insta-death spikes from megaman (or megaman zero for some of us), you got 'em. you wanna easy breezy time (like using the cyber elf from megaman zero), you got it.

aren't customizable difficulty modifiers great?

non-threatening spikes aren't fun, here we're basically showing a new player the game and their first experience is too easy to be fun. Instead of "woops I fell in a pit" they should be thinking "how can I get across this pit" or "I should be careful around the spikes next time". It would make more sense to turn spike damage down and reduces the rewards you get, dull spikes to be a thing you turn on when you dont want to try or challenge yourself in any way. the game can have tons of customization to difficulty but at the end of the day the first thing people are gonna see if the default which is what matters

multiple points here where you are incorrect.

"non-threatening spikes aren't fun" to you. different players have different ideas of what "fun" is. some of us like difficulty, other people don't.

without going into too many factors that would make this post longer than it needs to be, reward and punishment is a tricky thing to balance in games. Yes players need to be rewarded for success, otherwise what is the point of playing; but also yes they need to be punished for making mistakes because if everything works then why bother playing the way the devs want us to. in general however, you want to skew towards rewarding the player whenever it makes sense to.

we both agree here (i assume) that the player should be able to toggle whether or not spikes mean instant death and that having spikes on instant death should have a greater reward. But your decision would frame wanting an easier time in game as something that should be punished ("oh, you can't handle the normal difficulty? well, you don't get normal rewards then"). The decision that the devs (and frankly I agree with) went with frames it as a potential to reward the players ("oh, you're able to handle harder than normal? have a little extra").

[Megapal]

Originally posted by Nolo Contendere:

Originally posted by megapal:

non-threatening spikes aren't fun, here we're basically showing a new player the game and their first experience is too easy to be fun. Instead of "woops I fell in a pit" they should be thinking "how can I get across this pit" or "I should be careful around the spikes next time". It would make more sense to turn spike damage down and reduces the rewards you get, dull spikes to be a thing you turn on when you dont want to try or challenge yourself in any way. the game can have tons of customization to difficulty but at the end of the day the first thing people are gonna see if the default which is what matters

multiple points here where you are incorrect.

"non-threatening spikes aren't fun" to you. different players have different ideas of what "fun" is. some of us like difficulty, other people don't.

without going into too many factors that would make this post longer than it needs to be, reward and punishment is a tricky thing to balance in games. Yes players need to be rewarded for success, otherwise what is the point of playing; but also yes they need to be punished for making mistakes because if everything works then why bother playing the way the devs want us to. in general however, you want to skew towards rewarding the player whenever it makes sense to.

we both agree here (i assume) that the player should be able to toggle whether or not spikes mean instant death and that having spikes on instant death should have a greater reward. But your decision would frame wanting an easier time in game as something that should be punished ("oh, you can't handle the normal difficulty? well, you don't get normal rewards then"). The decision that the devs (and frankly I agree with) went with frames it as a potential to reward the players ("oh, you're able to handle harder than normal? have a little extra").

the problem is it's basically impossible to lose without amping up spike damage because when they don't do any significant damage and your health increases indefinitely so you can just run over them when you don't like the obstacle. If not instant death then the spikes should emulate the dynamic and always threatening nature of instant death traps, such as hitting a spike or falling in a pit would inflict 25% of your health bar rather than 1 point, because 1 point most likely means nothing after a few stages. I've personally ended runs with 40~ hitpoints and you bet I didn't care about obstacles at all, now if the spikes has done 10 damage, then yeah, the pacing would be preserved, maybe that's when that spike repro would come in handy...

[Deathraven13]

Originally posted by megapal:

After testing and tweaking the difficulty modes I found that the +3 spike level is the only thing that turns the game from sonic, to megaman. without instant death spikes the game is just too fast, doesnt feel megaman.. With instant death spikes? Yeah, it feels like megaman

but for real, what is the point of spikes and pits if they only do 1 damage..... of course I'll take 1 damage to skip over an obstacle lol! Yeah I know 20xx, no instant death spikes either, but this is a whole new game, level design is more like megaman for sure

whatever scientist designed 1 damage spike, I say fire him, he's a quack! we need a spike engineer on standard duty for extra spiky spikes that actually kill things

If you want megaman then play megaman. Losing 1 HP can be the end of you.

[Théotime]

Originally posted by megapal:

the problem is it's basically impossible to lose without amping up spike damage because when they don't do any significant damage and your health increases indefinitely so you can just run over them when you don't like the obstacle.

I disagree. I played quite a lot of 20XX (I'm not that skilled, but still), and I had a rather hard time with 30XX at first. Because I was learning how the chunks were designed and everything.

If 30XX was Megaman, then maybe spikes should deal more damage. But in Megaman, you can try a level over and over again until you completed it, death isn't nearly as punitive as in 30XX (assuming you aren't playing in Mega Mode). In 30XX, I'd honestly be really upset if I was nearly at the end of the game, with almost full life, just to die to spikes I didn't see. If it was Megaman, I'd just think it wouldn't be a big deal because I can just try the exact same level, exactly as close as I was to the end, knowing that there was spikes where I died.

[Megapal]

Originally posted by Deathraven13:

Originally posted by megapal:

After testing and tweaking the difficulty modes I found that the +3 spike level is the only thing that turns the game from sonic, to megaman. without instant death spikes the game is just too fast, doesnt feel megaman.. With instant death spikes? Yeah, it feels like megaman

but for real, what is the point of spikes and pits if they only do 1 damage..... of course I'll take 1 damage to skip over an obstacle lol! Yeah I know 20xx, no instant death spikes either, but this is a whole new game, level design is more like megaman for sure

whatever scientist designed 1 damage spike, I say fire him, he's a quack! we need a spike engineer on standard duty for extra spiky spikes that actually kill things

If you want megaman then play megaman. Losing 1 HP can be the end of you.

so far it hasn't been a problem for me

Originally posted by Théotime:

Originally posted by megapal:

the problem is it's basically impossible to lose without amping up spike damage because when they don't do any significant damage and your health increases indefinitely so you can just run over them when you don't like the obstacle.

I disagree. I played quite a lot of 20XX (I'm not that skilled, but still), and I had a rather hard time with 30XX at first. Because I was learning how the chunks were designed and everything.

If 30XX was Megaman, then maybe spikes should deal more damage. But in Megaman, you can try a level over and over again until you completed it, death isn't nearly as punitive as in 30XX (assuming you aren't playing in Mega Mode). In 30XX, I'd honestly be really upset if I was nearly at the end of the game, with almost full life, just to die to spikes I didn't see. If it was Megaman, I'd just think it wouldn't be a big deal because I can just try the exact same level, exactly as close as I was to the end, knowing that there was spikes where I died.

That is a good point, I think the more reasonable change would be to make spikes do damage based on a percentage of HP, because I think they should punish you for trying to go too fast, as in they help with pacing levels, but the pacing doesn't hold when you've got enough health to not care

[Sairek Ceareste]

Originally posted by megapal:

Originally posted by Deathraven13:

If you want megaman then play megaman. Losing 1 HP can be the end of you.

so far it hasn't been a problem for me

Originally posted by Théotime:

I disagree. I played quite a lot of 20XX (I'm not that skilled, but still), and I had a rather hard time with 30XX at first. Because I was learning how the chunks were designed and everything.

If 30XX was Megaman, then maybe spikes should deal more damage. But in Megaman, you can try a level over and over again until you completed it, death isn't nearly as punitive as in 30XX (assuming you aren't playing in Mega Mode). In 30XX, I'd honestly be really upset if I was nearly at the end of the game, with almost full life, just to die to spikes I didn't see. If it was Megaman, I'd just think it wouldn't be a big deal because I can just try the exact same level, exactly as close as I was to the end, knowing that there was spikes where I died.

That is a good point, I think the more reasonable change would be to make spikes do damage based on a percentage of HP, because I think they should punish you for trying to go too fast, as in they help with pacing levels, but the pacing doesn't hold when you've got enough health to not care

Why would anyone take max HP ever, then?

People shouldn't be punished for taking a stat ever. Why would anyone ever take the stat, then?

Your complaint is that high amounts of HP makes you bulky but uh... isn't that kind of the point with taking more HP? To allow more room for error? Even Megaman Zero allowed you to face tank spikes for ages if you got the upgrades/subtanks for it, and people call those games the Dark Souls of Megaman nowadays.

[Megapal]

Originally posted by Sairek Ceareste:

Originally posted by megapal:

so far it hasn't been a problem for me



That is a good point, I think the more reasonable change would be to make spikes do damage based on a percentage of HP, because I think they should punish you for trying to go too fast, as in they help with pacing levels, but the pacing doesn't hold when you've got enough health to not care

Why would anyone take max HP ever, then?

People shouldn't be punished for taking a stat ever. Why would anyone ever take the stat, then?

Your complaint is that high amounts of HP makes you bulky but uh... isn't that kind of the point with taking more HP? To allow more room for error? Even Megaman Zero allowed you to face tank spikes for ages if you got the upgrades/subtanks for it, and people call those games the Dark Souls of Megaman nowadays.

spikes and pits have never been about the damage, they are elements for slowing down the player and to create a challenge that is challenging regardless of current progress, hp is for dealing with enemies and bosses or minor environmental obstacles like lazers

megaman x5 handled spike walking well with the gaea armor, which lets you skip spikes at the cost of slowing down megaman entirely, it preserves the pacing while letting you touch spikes