So what exactly is "Paradox of eternal ending"?

[Wintermute]

Spoilers, duh.

This is a specific Numen. "Eternity and history can not be reconciled - not unless we understand the Paradox of eternal ending". i clearly don't understand the said paradox, even as concept.

I just went through all 3 magnate endings of it. 1 of those endings denies the Second Dawn, stating that the world needs no more colors, and that's really it. Very magnate thing, to ♥♥♥♥ the whole humanity out of Eternity.

The other 2 are more interesting, and relate to the 2 variants of City Unbuilt. Both of the cities are generally the same, as in, they become the last city of humanity, the final one, and in them Histories comes to an end. All of them, it seems.

it's beyond me how this reconciles Eternity with History. It explicitly brings an end, not any kind of permanence. Not even the kind of stasis one would expect of Winter. Does it make Eternity end like Histories do? I guess so, but it's a really one-sided reconcilliation then. Doesn't really bring any kind of "freedom", which is Coseley's whole idea, other than freedom by death.

The fluff around the book in question is also interesting, and just as nonsensical to me. it's the second edition of the same book by Coseley, who originally argues for Histories and against Eternity, and searches for techniques able to permanently stunlock Hours.

He is brought to acknowledge the said paradox, "a philosophy of quiet acceptance", by works of Husher and some painter. Painter made 3 unspecified pictures. Husher... did whatever the ♥♥♥♥ it is that Husher did.

Husher's whole line is very cryptic. He has a book in which he writes of Palest painting, his temptation to make one, and how he simply desires death. Also, of how "winter is west of the world", and of its doomed romance with the sun. Palest painting, as we know from CS, doesn't really do much - it's a memorial to dead colors, that just opens as a door directly to Nowhere, bypassing things like "death". Husher did disappear, but there's no real indication that he made said painting. You can actually recreate his disappearance yourself, and it doesn't involve the painting either.

How otherwise bog-standard Winter ascension (which Coseley, being Winter-long himself, should be at least aware of) ties to the Paradox, I don't get either. Is it the state of "death but not quite" the ghouls achieve? Why is it a numen then?

I really, really don't get that one.

[SCPantera]

I'm only mid way into my own project to untangle the lore but afaict a Final Understanding implies Coseley realizing that ending capital E Eternity doesn't ensure that whatever resultant freed Histories are themselves eternal, and perhaps that ending Eternity requires an eternal ending.

[Wintermute]

I wonder, maybe the paradox IS that Eternity can be brought to an end. That the finite immortality of Winter-long can be extended to the whole Mansus, and that there is liberation of death in Eternity.

That kinda fits with Coseley being so angry about having to rewrite his book, after he already found a solution in Inescapable confinement.

[Sintonir]

Eternity against History is Perfection vs Freedom.
And really, if you are free to change, you can't be perfect all the time.
The paradox may be the solution to that.
What if there is nobody to change? Then you have your freedom. If the History came to an end, its end can be an eternal perfection, which is completely free to go any route - because there are no routes left.
But that's just a surface understanding. I mean, it is a Paradox, even in the world of Book of Hours. It may be just something for which someone not in the Know can't even find words.

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by Sintonir:

Eternity against History is Perfection vs Freedom.
And really, if you are free to change, you can't be perfect all the time.
The paradox may be the solution to that.
What if there is nobody to change? Then you have your freedom. If the History came to an end, its end can be an eternal perfection, which is completely free to go any route - because there are no routes left.
But that's just a surface understanding. I mean, it is a Paradox, even in the world of Book of Hours. It may be just something for which someone not in the Know can't even find words.

Paradoxes can usually be formulated though. Like, the whole "mansus walls" thing is a paradox, but it can be put in words.

Eternal ending explicitly lacks said formulation. That's the reason for the topic - I wonder if people came up with clear way to write it down.

I'm also suspecting that magnate interpretation of it is just the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ version. Dug up some endings on wiki, it seems default paradox endings are MUCH more in-depth on what they actually represent. Don't want to spoil it too much for myself yet.

I guess it also ties to specifics of the Cities unbuilt. The one at house of moon seems to be "where arts meet their end", which, going by the logic of some skills, I assume means reaching their perfect states.

The city at Noon though, even without paradox, seems to imply the global end of things. Either for humanity, histories as a whole, or "the world", whatever that one means in context of the setting. It's always ivory towers that rise there (which are part of Elegiast iconography), and they are described as something contrary to what Noon was before - a symbol of end in the port where people go to avoid endings.

Then again, Noon is the city of Obliviates. Who in turn come from order which used to deal with Elegiast specifically. IDK how to tie it together.

[cyrocrystal]

I just thought that was a reference to the secret histories. All the secret histories that are even referenced seem to contradict each other greatly. So maybe the only way to reconcile them IS to destroy them.

[Wintermute]

I think now, upon wrapping up my completion run, that there's more to the paradox than just bringing Histories and Eternity together.

The paradox is the end. Of both. Because there is a force opposite of the Sun.

Eternity is generally associated with Sun in Splendour. He was the ruler of Mansus, the House of the Sun. His plans are described as Eternity's ultimate victory, he seems to want to bring humanity into it. His death due to machinations of Grail is repeatedly described as a blow to Eternity.

What's opposite of Eternity? Death. Ending.

While Histories sure have a lot of deaths in them, they aren't really ever described as final. Chaotic, yes. Imperfect. Free, tangled and messy. But never it's implied that Histories would end at some point. Only that they will grow ever more incoherent.

The very conflict between History and Eternity is not the conflict of immortality and death, but of chaos vs order instead. Hours shape histories, determining whats real and what's not. See how death or end isn't really involved? Nobody extends Histories. They keep going on their own.

So what is the Ending then? The opposite of the Sun who promises Eternity.

There is a book that describes Sun as merely an eye of a great serpent, and argues that there is another eye, and that eye can not be Moon. It could be impllied that the other eye is the Egg unhatching - but one of game's endings describe the Egg as merely "Sun's older self", which can be brough back by simply getting rid of Woof Divided.

So there is another Eye of the Serpent. What exactly hatched from the Egg unhatching?

There is an incident in Numa, A Matter of the Midnight Twin, dedicated to Moon topics. "Visitors will be concerned with matters of shadow and substance, revelation and obscurity". During it, you are visited by aunt Mopsy and Julian Coseley.

Coseley opens with a following quoute: "…facile chatter about balance and harmony. No time for that at all. But as the other magus said, when a thing is kept too long from its opposite…"

This incident is also the first, and the ONLY time where Coseley, an anarchist who used to fight against the rule of Eternity, calls Eternity "Necessity" instead, and his own fight against it arrogant. This event is clearly after Coseley had to revise his book and come to understand the Paradox. There is something necessary in the rule of the Sun, something even Coseley, advocate for Histories, is forced to recognise.

Aunt Mopsy goes with following quoutes:
"Seeds grow best in darkness. Flowers grow best in sunlight. If the moon's the fruit of night, why does it always wither?"
and
"Yes, dear. Without all those gods in darkness, I don't imagine we'd see much Sun anywhere below Eternity. Sleep softly."

Moon withers in night because it's not OF the night - it's merely the part of the day's Sun, and shines its reflected light (because let's bring astronomy into made up occult stuff). Moon is not the other eye of the seprent. There is true Sun of the Night. A Midnight twin. An opposite of Sun in Splendour who heralds Eternity - a herald of Eternal Ending, and it's their power that is invoked in the Paradox to deny the Second Dawn, or to bring the absolute End to the world through the City at Noon.

What could possibly serve that other sun? Worms and Gods-from-nowhere are the obvious answer. Nowhere is dark. Worms are a direct threat to both Mansus and Histories. Where do the Gods-from-nowhere come from? Nobody knows.

There is however a third group of Hours, neither from Mansus nor from Nowhere, and knowledge of them is even more suppressed that of Nowhere-hours, or Gods-from-stone. Snow, Blackbone and the Giribrago. Hours with almost no info about them, except some bits. This is from Priest in CS:

'In the House of the Sun, the dance of the angels of Glory does not cease. Those who were cast down, wave or wound or snow, are gone from the House, and as long as their parts in the dance are filled, they may never return. Therefore let us join hands, and add our little steps to the dance.'

Blackbone is mentioned in relation to the Hush house, as a force that seeks to drown the isle and will inevitably do so. Donkerling, imprisoned under the Stair Tenebrous, is their long. They are implied to be responsible for the drowning of Eva Dewolf, and for the curse that still lingers on her descendants. It's an hour of dark depths and drowning.

Snow is the winter hour - THE winter hour, in the same fashion Grail or Moth are for their respective aspects. Their servant, Chione, is described in "Chione at Abydos" (confirmed with some metagame stuff). They are the one who helped Coseley write first edition of the book, the one before Necessity, the one that seeks to confine hours in inescapable prison.

A bunch of hours, suppressed beyond even Stone ones, exiled from the House, yet longing to return and finding ways for their influence, even more malign than that of the Nowhere hours. Who do they serve, where do they reside? What is the opposite of the House of the Sun if not Moon? What is the opposite of Eternity if not Histories?

Something so dire that even Coseley, upon understanding it, starts viewing Eternity as Necessity.


anyway, i'm done lol. i dug through obscure stuff and implications like that when Exile released, and a lot of those got set in stone and clarified with Book of hours. so here's to another expansion to dig into this. or to the third game

[mhm_cake]

Originally posted by Wintermute:

I think now, upon wrapping up my completion run, that there's more to the paradox than just bringing Histories and Eternity together.

...

Neat read. I do want to say though, Towards a Fundamental Aesthetic calls Snow a Nowhere-Hour:

"He presents this as his own work, but there are hints here and there that he received inspiration or even assistance from the Nowhere-Hour named Snow."

Also, out of curiosity do you happen to have the quote where he calls Eternity, Necessity?

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by mhm_cake:

Originally posted by Wintermute:

I think now, upon wrapping up my completion run, that there's more to the paradox than just bringing Histories and Eternity together.

...

Neat read. I do want to say though, Towards a Fundamental Aesthetic calls Snow a Nowhere-Hour:

"He presents this as his own work, but there are hints here and there that he received inspiration or even assistance from the Nowhere-Hour named Snow."

Also, out of curiosity do you happen to have the quote where he calls Eternity, Necessity?

True. But Nowhere-hours are still part of the Invisible world and its functions. Crowned Growth is patron to one of the libraries of the Watchman tree. Applebright is patron to another. Mare-in-the-Tree sits in Calyptra, mingles with Malachite and pairs with Witch-and Sister from time to time (or the other way around, I don't quite remember). Above all, they are still recognized as Hours by Chancel (who can revoke that status, like with Wheel). The whole drama about them being evil is even called out by one of Dewulfs as manufactured.

Snow is suppresed. Even Gods-from-stone are better remembered than they are. So even if Snow is born of Nowhere, it doesn't contradict the fact that they got thrown out of the hierarchy.