Determination Discussion

[Olleus]

Needless to say, spoilers galore. You have been warned.




I've been mapping out all the determinations you can make, and have saved them as a table:

https://imgur.com/V6sZNTc

I've doubled checked it, but errors might still have crept in.

I've grouped them by aspect, such that two neighbouring determinations (in the same block) will always reinforce each other in one aspect. In other words, the fewest determinations you need in order to have 2 aspect in the same thing is:

Lantern: Lantern + Moth
Moth: Lantern + Moth

Grail: Grail + Nectar
Nectar: Grail + Nectar

Sky: Rose + Sky
Forge: Sky + Forge
Rose: Forge + Rose

Scale: Moon + Scale
Heart: Scale + Heart
Knock: Heart + Knock
Winter: Knock + Winter
Edge: Winter + Edge

And you would expect Edge + Moon to give Moon for it all to work out. But it doesn't, it gives Grail! So there are 3 determinations for grail (Edge, Grail, Nectar), but only 1 for Moon. This feels... odd. Is it deliberate? Does it hint to some extra special ending?

[Serpit]

Could you check the nectar determination again?

According to this list someone else compiled, it gives Nectar + Moon, which makes more sense: https://book-of-hours.fandom.com/wiki/Determination

[Olleus]

Sure. Here you go. Nectar + Grail, clear as day.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3029635333


So either there's a mistake somewhere, or a patch has changed things, or the system is way more complicated than we thought.

[Wintermute]

"Moon"-logic, lol.

One could argue that Moon is the aspect of secrets, so it might be intentional. Might be a bug.

[Serpit]

Originally posted by Olleus:

Sure. Here you go. Nectar + Grail, clear as day.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3029635333


So either there's a mistake somewhere, or a patch has changed things, or the system is way more complicated than we thought.

Thanks! Although I can't see your image for some reason, so I tested it myself just now.

https://i.imgur.com/brJxVTh.png

Turns out the tooltip saying it adds Nectar and Grail is just wrong. If you actually make the determination, it adds Nectar and Moon, and displays a tooltip suggesting First Flower: Black for a Moon History.

[Olleus]

Weird, can you see it now?

Ah, so the tool tip is wrong but the effect is correct. Minor UI bug then. Weird that they wrote that manually rather than having a script fill in the end of the text based on the effects actually caused.

Still, it's a funny structure. There's a 2-cycle (Moth and Lantern), a 3-cycle (Sky, Forge, and Rose), and then a huge 8-cycle with everything else. Am I mad for thinking there's some meaning to this?

[Serpit]

Yeah, I can see it now.

You're not mad, but I also don't think there's a greater meaning to it. They had to somehow sort 13 aspects into 4 categories with a way to get matching aspects with no category overlap, while also keeping it thematically consistent. The results are bound to be a little asymmetrical.

[Olleus]

So there's no ending based on getting exactly the right set of 4 determinations or the like?

[Serpit]

Originally posted by Olleus:

So there's no ending based on getting exactly the right set of 4 determinations or the like?

Not to my knowledge. As far as I know (spoilers for exact ending requirements) The only things that factor into what ending you get are 1) the Numen used 2.) the aspect used to write your History and 3) your background. Of note: You can get different endings for the same Numen by using different aspects. So every Numen offers 3 standard major victories (so 39 possible major victories for all 13 Numina), and since every background has 2 Numina that give them special endings, that adds 6 major victories per background, equaling 54. This puts the total number of different major victories at 93. Have fun getting them all, I stopped after getting all 6 Revolutionary victiories and 3 generic ones.

[Olleus]

Perfect, thanks for that.
I knew about the 3 tiers of victory: tombstone, numa, origin specific: but I was wondering if there was maybe something else from finding every room in the house and every secret or the like. Apparently not, which is almost a relief lol.