Improving the Wisdom Tree

[Olleus]

The wisdom tree, at the moment is... meh. It doesn't really do anything. It's a place to put skills in and get soul out, but there's nothing to it. You don't get anything for climbing further into the tree, it just becomes slowly harder to get soul. Even the lore it gives depends only the card placed in it, nothing that progresses with climbing up the tree.

The only sense in which it provides anything for the player to do is in obfuscation: you don't know what wisdoms a lesson is compatible with until you've turned it into a skill, and you don't know what soul a skill will give once committed until you've levelled it up enough to try it out in a slot for that wisdom. There's really no reason for these 2 pieces of information to be not displayed on the lesson IMO.

A little related, upgrading soul cards is clearly a problem, just by looking at the sheer number of threads about it on this forum. It probably needs to be simplified to not require the triple restrictions of matching: skill wisdom to workbench, skill attunement to soul card, and both cards to work bench. At the very least, it should be explained better. And probably fewer combinations that can't be used until the very end of the game.


But beyond that, I think some simple changes would make the tree more dynamic and interesting to play with. It already has shortcuts built it to skip between different parts of it, wouldn't it be better if the player had a reason to use them?!?

• Placing a skill card in level 1-3 of a wisdom would be unchanged, but placing it at 4-6 would give a + version of that card, and level 7-9 would give ++.
  
• The abilities that let a skill remove an infection/curse/worm, as well as making candles, would be removed from the skills themselves, and instead ~3 copies of each of these abilities would be sprinkled around the Wisdom tree. A skill committed on a slot with one of those abilities would gain that ability for itself - on top of getting the soul card as normal.
  
• Placing a card at level 8 on a branch of the tree would give a hint towards a relevant great ink recipe.
  
• Placing a card at level 9 on a branch of the tree would give a hint towards the corresponding numen.

Not huge changes at all, but I think it would make the wisdom tree more involving, more deliberate, more rewarding, and generally feeling a little wiser than it is at the moment.

[Jewel]

I've been thinking about this, too. I really like your suggestions for tweaking the existing system -- especially the ability to assign the extra abilities to skills you already possess and handling the Soul card ranks a bit differently.

One idea to add to the list of small changes: Give us a buff when we use a committed Skill at a station with the matching Wisdom trait (the ones currently only used for Evolve). If using an Illumination-committed Skill at an Illumination-aligned station gave some kind of bonus, that might make all those late-game altars more appealing.

That said, I think that while the Wisdoms are interesting lore, the implementation feels like a bit of a mess. These are some of the issues I've been mulling over:

• I understand the intentions between making each skill committed to the tree demand a higher level than the previous one, but this just creates unnecessary feelings of regret and doubt when it comes to leveling up skills that have already been committed. It almost feels like the "power" of the tree should be determined by the total level, but then the Level Skips lose their purpose (unless extra abilities are tied to individual slots, as you've suggested)
  
• Evolve is incredibly bland. It seems to have no clear lore implications (what exactly does it mean to have Phost+ vs 2x Phost?), and gameplay-wise, I'm perfectly comfy with having many soul cards to throw at more tasks rather than having a more powerful card.
  
• There is no "need" to master any Wisdom at all to complete the game. This contradicts the stated goals of the various Librarians. In this case, I think we need a stronger reward than a "hint," but it's hard to say what. If it weren't for the lore very clearly tying certain skills to the Inks, I would say that the 9th slot of a Wisdom should itself be what grants the ability to craft / use them (or the Numens).
  
• Nothing but Evolve cares about what Wisdom your skills are tied to. Nothing at all cares about how far in a given tree you've advanced.

It feels like Wisdoms are a concept that were meant to have much more of a role in the game but got continually stripped down, until we just have some hints of them left. I have the strangest sense that filling out a tree was once far more important for earning a victory, only to be usurped by the Numens, but that's just a vibe. Without undoing the existing mechanics, though, I can't really see anyway to undo that, and adding yet another ingredient to the victory condition beyond just the inks and Numens would just feel like busywork. It doesn't help that we're dealing with 5 Inks, 9 Wisdoms, and 13 Numens, so they don't even line up very well for any attempt to tinker with using the Wisdoms to create the Inks/Numens. I've been puzzling over this for a while trying to figure out how to make "mastering" a Wisdom truly meaningful without stepping on or breaking the other systems, but it's certainly a tough one.

[Esteri]

The wisdom tree could definitely be improved - just thinking of trying to figure it out any further has essentially halted my run. Which is extremely sad - the first ~18 hours of play were really engaging, I was making steady progress, I was enjoying my discoveries in the books and village and house.

After that, I hit a hard plateau, which turned into a treading-water-grind wherein I spent more time idling tiredly, frustratedly in the pause menu trying to match up this aspect and that aspect so I could evolve souls or level skills or try and read another book, or craft something I forgot how to (usually, quite unsuccessfully). Trying to evolve skill is like pulling rotten teeth and I'm rather done with it (and thus the game) for the time being.

I also feel like I've screwed this run already (28 hours...) because of some of the things I chose to do: where I decided to put certain skills, or the fact I levelled up skills that were already committed, essentially wasting lessons so I could try and open up rooms a little faster (to me this made sense, but a glance at the forums and I'm realizing how unwise that likely was).

If Weather Factory is still actively making tweaks to the game (it looks like they are), I hope they consider some of the points you've raised as well as what others have been discussing. I work in indie and I know how difficult it can be to wade through discourse essentially telling you that your design is fundamentally flawed (or at the very least, is somewhat trying and sometimes unenjoyable) but I hope they know they have a really cool, solid game here that could just use some QoL adjustments here and there to make it, as it claims to be, more forgiving than Cultist Simulator - and hopefully less frustrating overall.

[ohioguyo]

Originally posted by Jewel:

One idea to add to the list of small changes: Give us a buff when we use a committed Skill at a station with the matching Wisdom trait (the ones currently only used for Evolve). If using an Illumination-committed Skill at an Illumination-aligned station gave some kind of bonus, that might make all those late-game altars more appealing.

Hmm, that does sound interesting. If there are aligned stations fitting the Skill (but that don't fit the Soul fragment you get), getting some kind of alignment bonus could help ease the FOMO of getting a Soul fragment you can't evolve.

With so many skills though it's already hard to keep track of which has the most Aspect for a given slot - we could use some UI help such as a hotkey to show small Aspect counts on cards, or have clicking on a slot highlight cards that fit with highest aspects showing brightest, etc.

I'm guessing the lore implications could have 2x Phost as a well-rounded person with diverse intellectual interests, turning into more of an intense obsessive monomaniac when evolving them to Phost+ . That's just spitballing though, extra "I am more than I was" type ingame prose might help Evolving seem more vivid.

I agree it feels almost like more was originally intended for the Tree. Does anyone know what the little curved dashed lines between certain spaces on the ToW are meant to signify? Could be neat if reaching certain combinations of Wisdom levels unlocked a special skill or bonus.

It feels like it could get quite grindy to reach slot 9 of a Wisdom, so I'm kind of glad I didn't; but you're right reaching mid to high levels could get more interesting if there was a specific situational goal to work toward.

This could fit well with some rare mechanic that cares about your current level in a Wisdom, or your total in the Bright Arts, Night Arts, or Arts Unregarded. Perhaps:

• If major Numa Incidents hang around across several Numas, and with the right Wisdoms and Aspects you can know enough to write a letter or perform a ritual to influence the outcome in an interesting way.
  
• Or certain visitors are tagged as devotees of a specific Mystery, and will respect you as a colleague and share an extra Memory or Lesson or Assistance if you're eminently skilled there.
  
• Or certain rare chests, seals and coffers can be opened only by skilled Horomachists, paintings completed only by skilled Hushers, etc.
  
• Or more generally, certain Mystery-aligned workstations have an additional optional input slot that can be employed only by an adept sufficiently versed in that Mystery, making this matter to achieve high-level recipes if you have the right Aspected materia.

[ohioguyo]

Originally posted by Esteri:

I also feel like I've screwed this run already (28 hours...) because of some of the things I chose to do: where I decided to put certain skills, or the fact I levelled up skills that were already committed, essentially wasting lessons so I could try and open up rooms a little faster (to me this made sense, but a glance at the forums and I'm realizing how unwise that likely was).

Don't despair (or do if that's the way to evolve Wist!) I also felt that way for awhile actually, since initially I blazed ahead randomly assigning to available slots; I then got frustrated later discovering stations for Evolving soul aspects that were mismatched to what I committed. But I eventually realized it is hard to get things truly in an unwinnable state - even without evolving soul cards, there is generally a way forward if you look at everything available to you (some light spoilers below if you'd like that would have helped me!)

Although leveling up skills already committed doesn't give extra soul, it's not truly a waste since that lesson is specific to that skill anyway, and still advances it so you can use it in further study and crafting.


If stuck unlocking rooms, talk to Assistants and realize there are multiple ways to boost their Aspects; such as by sharing Soul fragment, Memory, Weather, Food, Beverage, and more. I didn't realize this till remarkably late which was the source of frustration with my suboptimal Evolving!
If stuck studying books, aim to get a Memory of the matching aspect to boost you, either by rereading another book you have or by finding opportune Weather. You also can study the book at one of the Desks you discover if it has a matching aspect. This lets you add an Ink or Tool to boost Aspects further. I also didn't realize this for quite a while!
I did have to give in and visit the wiki a bit; mainly not to look up crafting recipes but since I'm not into taking extensive notes and wanted to track how to recover certain Memories. I do think the game could stand to be more forgiving there, e.g. when rereading a book it could at least tell you what Memory you're going to recover.

[Olleus]

Huh, wasn't expecting this thread to return from the dead 2 weeks later. I entirely agree, Wisdoms feel like they were stripped back from earlier design decisions. They just matter so little, it's weird that it's the only thing in the game that has its own screen! I guess that mastering a wisdom was meant to be linked to victory? Hard to see that being brought back without completely changing the current system of determinations and histories. Which is why I just suggested minor tweaks, but honestly, a complete overhaul might be called for.

I agree with the other problems identified by @jewel and the ideas to fix them, wasn't expecting them to go further than me on this haha!

[Jewel]

Originally posted by Olleus:

Huh, wasn't expecting this thread to return from the dead 2 weeks later. I entirely agree, Wisdoms feel like they were stripped back from earlier design decisions. They just matter so little, it's weird that it's the only thing in the game that has its own screen! I guess that mastering a wisdom was meant to be linked to victory? Hard to see that being brought back without completely changing the current system of determinations and histories. Which is why I just suggested minor tweaks, but honestly, a complete overhaul might be called for.

I agree with the other problems identified by @jewel and the ideas to fix them, wasn't expecting them to go further than me on this haha!

Hehe. I guess I've just had this game stuck on my mind recently, and I was doing my best to see if there was a thread on a given topic before just starting a new one. Which was good, because I feel like your suggestions are practical tweaks that would make the tree more accessible without stepping on other mechanics, and I sure don't have any actual ideas, just observations on what feels off about it. I'd be really interested in seeing if the devs can revitalize it into something more engaging (maybe as part of DLC), but it might be safer to just make light tweaks at this point.

If nothing else, I hope they can do something to reduce all the unnecessary stress / worry the tree inflicts on someone's first playthrough, before they realize that it's actually quite difficult to really screw yourself in this game. Lessons are actually plentiful (and the Numa mechanic could be used if needed), and maxing out a Wisdom is not, as the game implied, necessary to win (although the lore does help contextualize / explain some endings. Sometimes). That's probably the biggest QoL thing about it.

[Alexander]

I agree with pretty much everything said here, and the ideas proposed would certainly improve the game. The Tree of Wisdom feels more like a suggestion of a mechanics rather than a mechanics. But let me come from another angle.

The game is focused on skills, while the Wisdoms these skills are assigned to have very little impact. The only mechanics tied to Wisdoms I'm aware of is soul upgrading, and it is not one of my favorite, to say the truth. Making sure I can't evolve anything in a yet another workstation I have just unlocked is exhausting.

What if it was the other way around? What if the game was centered around the occult disciplines of the Tree?

What does "assigning a skill to a certain discipline" means, fluff-wise? It means integrating it into a bigger system of knowledge. It is supposed to both expand the scope of the discipline and to enrich the skill with the knowledge from outside of the scope of the skill. How can this relationship between a skill and a discipline be represented in the game? Here's an idea:

When a skill is assigned to a wisdom, it is not marked by that wisdom aspect, but, instead, it is subsumed into that wisdom. When a player assigns a skill to a branch of the Tree for the first time, they don't get the skill card back, they get the corresponding wisdom card back. From now on, all the skills assigned to the same branch are absorbed into the wisdom card. For each principle aspect the absorbed skills have, the wisdom card would have that aspect with the highest level of that aspect across all the absorbed skills. That would solve the annoying problem when a skill is assigned to the bottom of the Tree and, therefore, does nothing in the late game.

Combining skill cards into larger conglomerates also solves one of the most notorious UI problems: the skill tray.

This would, of course, change the crafting quite a bit, but I think the changes could be kept in the UI mostly, with mechanics more or less intact. For example, the skill slot would accept a skill or a wisdom card. If a wisdom card is inserted, then 1) an area appears at the bottom of the crafting window which contains all the skills integrated into the wisdom, and 2) an additional slot appears, which accepts one of those skills. Principle aspects would be supplied by the wisdom card, but the output would be determined by the skill.

This would, of course, limit how many things the player can do simultaneously, but I'd say 9 parallel processes should be enough most of the time. Moreover, this change would make the game easier in other aspects, so I don't think it would affect the overall balance negatively.

[Olleus]

That's a good idea. Would also remove the late game clutter of having way too many skills filling up the UI and my memory alike. This is such a fundamental change though, that at this point it would basically be a whole different game...

[beaver201]

Originally posted by Esteri:

I also feel like I've screwed this run already (28 hours...) because of some of the things I chose to do: where I decided to put certain skills, or the fact I levelled up skills that were already committed, essentially wasting lessons so I could try and open up rooms a little faster (to me this made sense, but a glance at the forums and I'm realizing how unwise that likely was).

Whatever it was you read that made you feel that way, ignore it. I feel like there's little to no way to screw yourself over that way. I committed a few skills early and still levelled them to 8 and never regretted it. There are WAY too many lessons for that. If I didn't miscount I had TWENTY-THREE (23) skills at levels 7 or 8 at the end. All of them were committed to the Tree well before that.

I ended that run with two Sharps lessons unused and a bunch of high-level books unread (the kind that start giving 3 lessons each), not even counting the many that I'm only just now seeing in my second run. And there are probably still more that I have never seen!

Here's an unsolicited piece of advice: if you are feeling stuck, just one or two aspect away from reading a book you "can't read" yet, take a chance. The game has a mechanic that will let you add things to make up the deficit: extra soul cards, random stuff, even WALL ART. It's random, but it might help. Once the first 60-second timer ends, it will run through a series of short timers (<10 seconds) that allow you add stuff. Pause time and just click through anything and everything in the House to find what you need).

[Alexander]

Originally posted by Olleus:

That's a good idea. Would also remove the late game clutter of having way too many skills filling up the UI and my memory alike. This is such a fundamental change though, that at this point it would basically be a whole different game...

Crafting would work the same, mostly, as I explained. Reading would work the same, exactly, because you'd pick the skill with the highest aspect level anyways. Leveling up soul parts... could work the same, as crafting, or could be more lenient than now, with easier to meet requirements. A wisdom card would absorb levelup "charges" from the assigned skills, as well as their aspects, so it would be easier to match it to a workstation. If it is considered too easy, then max level of soul upgrade could be limited by the level of the wisdom: level 1 wisdom upgrades to + only, level 3 wisdom upgrades up to ++, and level 7 - up to +++, for example.

The awkward spot are the languages. Now they can be assigned to the Tree the same way as any other skill, but if they were absorbed, it could create certain problems with the way they are used now...