Help my choice paralysis

[beaver201]

Sorry if this sounds needy, but I'm almost 30 hours in and need a kick in the butt or some differing opinions.

As indicated by the title, I'm having a hard time deciding which skills to start pushing past level 3 because I don't want to hurt myself in the long run with misallocated resources and the wonky crafting logic I've been reading about.

Also, I'm worried about running out of lessons, even though I hear there are 300 or so books and I only have found 30 or so.

Too paranoid?

Thanks.

[cswiger]

I don't think you will run out of lessons. I'm midway through level 5 skills, and I'm mostly still working on lvl-10 books, with plenty of lvl-12 through 18 still left.

You want to advance the aspects and skills matching your journal.

Try to get an odd # of soul cards. For example four base-level Wist cards can be upgraded to ++Wist, but you can't use that one card to recruit Mr. Kille and boost his Winter stat.

[Iconoclast]

Lessons are technically infinite if you recycle an uncommitted skill during Numa, because you can get back more lessons than you put in, if you upgraded the skill using only 1 lesson per level and filling out the rest with memories.

The crafting can be worked around, but you can keep one of the 'Inks of ...' skills at 3 so you can make Stargall and Yewgall ink without other elements overriding the recipe. Someone else made a post about it with some suggestions.

The real problem, that I'm not sure anyone has worked out yet, is that the skill tree is incredibly restrictive when it comes to correct placement for soul upgrades. I'm making tables for it now, but what I've seen really isn't good. For example: the ONLY way to get an upgrade from the Garden Practice Dummy is if you have Disciplines of the Hammer committed to Illumination. No other skill will work. I don't really have any advice for this beyond checking you can use a skill for an upgrade before you commit it.

[Wlerin]

Originally posted by beaver201:

As indicated by the title, I'm having a hard time deciding which skills to start pushing past level 3 because I don't want to hurt myself in the long run with misallocated resources and the wonky crafting logic I've been reading about.

According to my current understanding of crafting: All of them except maybe Edicts Martial and Inks of Containment (although the latter is a hard sell because you need it for Keeper-level stuff too, and its hard-to-get Prentice-level craft isn't that important).

[Vardis]

Originally posted by Iconoclast:

The real problem, that I'm not sure anyone has worked out yet, is that the skill tree is incredibly restrictive when it comes to correct placement for soul upgrades. I'm making tables for it now, but what I've seen really isn't good. For example: the ONLY way to get an upgrade from the Garden Practice Dummy is if you have Disciplines of the Hammer committed to Illumination. No other skill will work. I don't really have any advice for this beyond checking you can use a skill for an upgrade before you commit it.

It doesn't matter how many combinations can upgrade at a specific location. If Disciplines of the Hammer is the only Edge/Scale/Heart/Winter skill that can be assigned to Illumination and also gives Mettle instead of Phost, that's perfectly OK.

I've heard that there are combinations that can't be upgraded at any station, but even that isn't a real problem. You can get a *lot* of soul elements, and you can finish the game without upgrading your soul elements at all.

[Iconoclast]

Originally posted by Vardis:

It doesn't matter how many combinations can upgrade at a specific location. If Disciplines of the Hammer is the only Edge/Scale/Heart/Winter skill that can be assigned to Illumination and also gives Mettle instead of Phost, that's perfectly OK.

I've heard that there are combinations that can't be upgraded at any station, but even that isn't a real problem. You can get a *lot* of soul elements, and you can finish the game without upgrading your soul elements at all.

I finished some notes and tables. Turns out that the Garden Dummy isn't the only one. For example: the only skill/wisdom combo you can use on Hall of Division's Mirrors is Door & Wall set to Nyctodromy. Nothing else will work. In fact, there are 26 skills that become duds if you set them to the wrong wisdom. That's about 1/3 of all skills.

So the good news is, you'll get some boosts eventually regardless. The bad news is, you could RNG yourself into a slog if you haven't been careful with committing skills and you're short of the +1 you need to continue.

And no, you don't need the upgrades, but it's also more difficult to unlock rooms than it is to read because with reading you can attempt it with a lower skill than required.
Also, reading doesn't help you unlock rooms after a certain point (i.e. once you have the crafting skill for the booster you need), which is why I think a lot of people feel like they've been walled and they're twiddling their thumbs hoping for the right unusual helper / weather combination. The extra +1/+2 from having a boosted soul helps a lot, especially on weird elements that are hard to get.

[Wlerin]

Originally posted by Iconoclast:

I finished some notes and tables. Turns out that the Garden Dummy isn't the only one. For example: the only skill/wisdom combo you can use on Hall of Division's Mirrors is Door & Wall set to Nyctodromy. Nothing else will work.

And? Both the Garden Dummy and the Mirrors have easily accessible alternatives (Shrine: The Watchman/Practice Equipment in the Duelling Hall, and Shrine: St. Januarius, respectively, all unlockable before/at the same time you reach the Mirrors.) Plus more once you get deeper into the house.

If you want to whinge about something being hard to upgrade, whinge about Bosk. Although that's probably by design.

[Devilfish]

Originally posted by beaver201:

As indicated by the title, I'm having a hard time deciding which skills to start pushing past level 3 because I don't want to hurt myself in the long run with misallocated resources and the wonky crafting logic I've been reading about.

Also, I'm worried about running out of lessons, even though I hear there are 300 or so books and I only have found 30 or so.

There has been a LOT of rending of garments and hurt feelings about this but trust me: don't worry too much about it. If you want to game it a little bit it's best to make sure the skill you're placing has a matching aspect with the soul element you get from it, but other than that, and despite a few very adamant people, it's not possible to lock yourself out of an ending through "wrong" skill management. There's even a mechanic where you can "refund" lessons.

There will probably be moments where you say "oh I wish I would have done that differently" but that's part of the game, and the only way to completely avoid that is to have several spreadsheets and massive spoilers.

Basically just go with it and don't read the forums too much, there were a lot of early freakouts that turned out to be nothing.

[Aquillion]

Originally posted by Iconoclast:

I finished some notes and tables. Turns out that the Garden Dummy isn't the only one. For example: the only skill/wisdom combo you can use on Hall of Division's Mirrors is Door & Wall set to Nyctodromy. Nothing else will work. In fact, there are 26 skills that become duds if you set them to the wrong wisdom. That's about 1/3 of all skills.

Huh, that isn't quite that bad.

Remember that producing a fully upgraded soul requires 4 base souls and 3 skills placed in "valid" locations. That means you can place almost 25% of skills incorrectly and still upgrade everything. If you're correct and it's only possible to place 33% incorrectly, then it's harder to completely brick yourself than it seems.

(There are a few souls you get from sources other than placing skills; if you end up with a pair of those and want to upgrade them, the placement is more restrictive, hence "almost 25%". I'm not sure you're supposed to upgrade those, though, since ofc they inherently lack associated skills.)

Of course, you can still make things painful for yourself by having to wait longer for upgrades than you otherwise would. And I'd still prefer that they introduce enough additional upgrade paths to reduce that 33% to below 25% so bricking yourself is impossible - it's just too feelbad and doesn't fit the "explore and do things your way" feel of the game.

[Serpit]

Originally posted by Aquillion:

Originally posted by Iconoclast:

I finished some notes and tables. Turns out that the Garden Dummy isn't the only one. For example: the only skill/wisdom combo you can use on Hall of Division's Mirrors is Door & Wall set to Nyctodromy. Nothing else will work. In fact, there are 26 skills that become duds if you set them to the wrong wisdom. That's about 1/3 of all skills.

Huh, that isn't quite that bad.

Remember that producing a fully upgraded soul requires 4 base souls and 3 skills placed in "valid" locations. That means you can place 25% of skills incorrectly and still upgrade everything. If you're correct and it's only possible to place 33% incorrectly, then it's harder to completely brick yourself than it seems.

Quick correction: Souls go up to +++, which requires 8 base souls and 7 skills placed in "valid" locations. However, going that far is absolutely not necessary to beat the game, even with that particular aspect, so in the long run it really doesn't matter.

[Aquillion]

Originally posted by Serpit:

Originally posted by Aquillion:

Huh, that isn't quite that bad.

Remember that producing a fully upgraded soul requires 4 base souls and 3 skills placed in "valid" locations. That means you can place 25% of skills incorrectly and still upgrade everything. If you're correct and it's only possible to place 33% incorrectly, then it's harder to completely brick yourself than it seems.

Quick correction: Souls go up to +++, which requires 8 base souls and 7 skills placed in "valid" locations. However, going that far is absolutely not necessary to beat the game, even with that particular aspect, so in the long run it really doesn't matter.

Oh, oof, that's a lot harsher.

I do hope the developers fix the underlying issue, anyway. It doesn't fit the game's design for skill placement to be that rigid or to have irreconcilable "wrong" choices when placing them. The fact that it's not necessary to beat the game isn't really the point - the game is designed to encourage exploration, and the tree of knowledge is presented as being a way for you to express your own thoughts about where skills belong.

It shouldn't have any clear-cut "right" or "wrong" assignments at all, fullstop. This isn't that sort of game.

[Vardis]

Originally posted by Iconoclast:

I finished some notes and tables. Turns out that the Garden Dummy isn't the only one. For example: the only skill/wisdom combo you can use on Hall of Division's Mirrors is Door & Wall set to Nyctodromy. Nothing else will work.

"Nothing else will work" makes it sound like that's some horrible situation. That doesn't matter. Honest, I'm not just messing with you. The number of combinations that can be upgraded at one specific workstation is irrelevant.

In fact, there are 26 skills that become duds if you set them to the wrong wisdom. That's about 1/3 of all skills.

Now that is relevant information. :) But you may want to run a recipe through some workstations that look wrong. A few were patched, but don't update until you use them once.

[Waladil]

To directly answer the OP:

For the majority of play, it does not really matter. There are definitely optimal strats, but this game is not designed to require optimal strats, so as long as you make some "good" decisions, you'll be fine.

So here's what you do. Pick SEVEN skills, that between them have all THIRTEEN aspects. Six of those skills each bring two aspects to the table, and the seventh should just be a single aspect from the higher stat.

My "build" for skills is simply:
Resurgences & Emergences (Grail/Moth)
Serpents & Venoms (Moon/Scale)
Purifications & Exaltations (Sky/Lantern)
Preliminal Meter (Rose/Knock)
Ragged Cross (Winter/Edge)
Spices & Savors (Nectar/Forge)
and Weaving & Knotworking (Heart)

These seven skills ARE NOT OPTIMAL. I really want to emphasize that there are "better" choices to be made. However, because there are in fact so many books and so many lessons in the game, you will be able to make "mistakes" (which really just means sub-optimal plays) and be more than fine.

Having seven high leveled skills to cover every aspect will let you read a lot more books and a lot more difficult ones. They will also let you cheaply start producing ingredients and memories to explore more of the house (Notably, Weaving & Knotworking can be used to make Perhibiate Ink, which is a quite nice boost. Being able to produce that ink without spending any "real" resources is great.)

For the record, I have a personal database (I haven't been taking from or adding to anyone else's resources on this, because I enjoy making my own), and I know of 63 distinct skills and 157 books. You will not, in practice, find yourself running out of either.

[Wlerin]

Originally posted by Waladil:

For the record, I have a personal database (I haven't been taking from or adding to anyone else's resources on this, because I enjoy making my own), and I know of 63 distinct skills and 157 books. You will not, in practice, find yourself running out of either.

Hmm, seems like I'm still missing at least 1 skill then. Or (for symmetry's sake) I'm missing two and you're missing one.

edit: found one hiding in a workstation