Disciples 3: Reincarnation and You: Understanding the Differences Between This and Renaissance / Resurrection

[Chronoja]

After glancing at this forum it's immediately clear that many people are extremely confused as to what Disciples: Reincarnation is. Some people think it is merely a re-branding of an older games, some think that the changes are so insignificant that they could be pushed out in a nondescript patch for the other games. This is not true however, the changes made to Reincarnation are extensive, fundamentally changing how the game plays, and this is the point.

Disciples III: Renaissance was not a well received game, it had problems, especially at launch with bugs and whatnot. Resurrection was similar but bugs aside, the biggest problems with these games were related to drastic changes made to gameplay mechanics that saw them play very differently to earlier titles, Disciples: Sacred Lands and Disciples II. Reincarnation was developed as a direct response to those complaints in an effort to pull the gameplay of Renaissance and Resurrection more in line with the older games. Also do not confuse Reincarnation with Disciples III: Gold which is simply a packaging of Renaissance and Resurrection together with no other changes made.

Below I will provide info on the changes and their significance relating to the series / previous games. Underlined text denotes specific info about a change made to Reincarnation.

edit: this segment used to say I had not yet played the game, I have since completed it, all campaigns on hard difficulty as the Warlord "class". It still stands though that if any information is inaccurate or omitted feel free to let me know and I will correct it.

Update 1: Ammending info based on reply from Azaghal

So what changed

The most obvious change was in regards to movement across the maps. In D:SL and DII parties could travel anywhere on the map restricted only by mountains, this included the ability to travel over water (with the water bound party being represented by a boat) at a significant move penalty. In Renaissance / Resurrection this was not the case, movement was heavily restricted, parties were only allowed to travel along designated paths and at no point could they move across water. In Reincarnation this is completely reverted, parties are no longer restricted to a path and they can once again move across water. This change alone is a prime example of why these changes could not be simply pushed out as a patch because it fundamentally changes the flow and strategy of the game, and as such the maps were updated to accommodate these changes.

Something I forgot to mention regarding travel over water in D:SL and II is that various party leaders came with the ability "flying" which allowed them to negate movement penalties from moving over various terrains which allowed them to travel over water much faster than other units. The drawback of this was that they did not gain benefits of moving across advantageous terrain such as paths. The return to this travel format in Reincarnation has resulted in:
No flying heroes. Makes sense, since the heroes weren't changed from Ren/Res, and you can only embark on water at specific points. - (Azaghal)

The next change was in regards to combat. Anyone who has played D:SL or II knows that combat took place on a static 2x3 grid meaning parties were restricted to 6 units, 5 normal + 1 party leader. In Ren / Res, combat was changed to a hex grid system allowing for much greater freedom and tactical gameplay. Whether or not you liked it was a personal preference, but simply put it was just a different way of doing things. To accommodate the new combat set up various other things were changed, ranging from unit statistics, party sizes and character progression. The numerical values in Ren / Res were extremely inflated compared to older games, health values for example ranged into several thousand where in previous games they rarely surpassed a few hundred and that was only for very highly leveled units. The addition of combat runes, and a larger party size of 8 (7 normal units + 1 leader) means it's understandable why these values were chosen but the impact it had on the games was profound, often times making battles drag out longer than they really needed to. In Reincarnation various changes were made to combat to address this. Unit stats are toned down to modest values and the size of the combat arenas have been reduced meaning that combat now sits as a kind of middle ground between the old 2x6 static grid and the large hex arenas.

To fit with this party size has also been reduced, the maximum leadership nodes have been reduced to 2, meaning a party can have 5 (normal) + 1 (leader). A new mechanic has been added that allows a leader to hold units "in reserve", up to a maximum of 4, units that do not engage in combat but can be swapped out anywhere on the map

Character progression took a drastic change in moving from II to III, normal units evolved much the same, purchasing upgrade buildings at your capital allowed them to transform into an improved unit once they had gained enough experience. Party leaders however gained the stat distribution (5 points per level) and a final fantasy 12 style talent grid (2 points per level) that gave them access to addition stat boosts, addition skills or the coveted leadership abilities to increase party size. What changed in Reincarnation is that every unit now has a similar system, so that means every normal unit now has their own simplistic skill grid as well as stat distribution. They are still restricted by the old rules governing their evolution but the added flexibility in how you want to use these units can make a big difference, especially considering the more modest values. The various tiles that appear on these grids also have been updated, as mentioned before, leadership has been reduced, but other tiles such as "Reserve" have been added.

One thing I wasn't aware of so thanks for the replies: units now need to gain three levels before evolving. They gain levels faster, in return. What this means is that units don't receive as huge a spike in powers when evolving, but gain power more gradually -(Azaghal)

A very important feature that was removed from D:SL and II was the usefulness of thieves. These units were integral to the game due to their unique abilities such as stealing items from enemy parties or stores, poisoning enemy parties without engaging in combat, or to the guild leader "hero type", inciting riots in towns or stealing spells etc. In Ren / Res all of these abilities were removed rendering the thief as just another party leader, except it required you to build a capital upgrade before you could purchase them, in short, they were a complete waste of gold and stone. With the changes made to the talent grids in Reincarnation the thief takes a small step back to his former self, regaining the ability to poison parties on the overmap and the ability to steal items from enemy parties.

Other things that have changed, the overworld spells / runes have been adjusted to have more modest values, plus they appear to be much more in line with previous installments "thematically". The spells in Ren / Res were rather homogeneous across the various races, not identical but not amazingly diverse.

"Energy" is now also required to use runes in combat, a system that was not present in any previous game. (I can not comment on the addition or changes made to the runes specifically since I have not checked at the time of writing this).
Energy limits the use of potions too , not just runes. The implication is that potions are much weaker for combat purposes. For instance, you usually won't have enough energy to use more than one revive potion per battle -(Azaghal)

Veteran heroes can be rehired for free from the start. You no longer have to wait until you have enough gold to recruit him/her, by which point that hero is underleveled and useless. This actually means that you can "main" a hired hero and let the unique hero tag along. -(Azaghal)

Moved from the unsure section where I had mentioned that ruins in D:SL and II were a hire risk, high reward encounter providing good items or resources upon victory. These were changed in Ren / Res to a low risk, low reward, repeatable every 10 turns affair severely limiting their overall worth.
Ruins are a mix of the D2 and Ren/Res system. Most are easy and repeatable with crappy rewards, but some are very hard and drop unique loot on first victory. Still, as noted above, you can peek at units in a ruin before engaging, which removes the risk/reward flavor from them - (Azaghal)

Other misc changes include a few new enemies, changes to items/ new items etc.

New voice actors for the intros, noteworthy because I know some people hated the old voice actors.

What has not changed.

The story. As I mentioned I haven't played the game extensively yet so it's possible that a few side quests have been updated / removed / added but for the most part the main over arching story is the same as Renaissance / Resurrection. To that end you are still expected to use the faction hero (Lambert etc) throughout the campaigns.

Player controlled units. Aside from stat values it appears that most (all?) upgrade trees are untouched. Aside from potential mercenary camps there's no new units to order around.

edit: Initiative functions as it did in Disciples III: Resurrection. For those unaware, the changes made to initiative between Renaissance and Resurrection were pretty unforgiving. In all games up to Renaissance initiative was pretty simple, units attacking in order from highest to lowest. In Resurrection, after every units turn the value of the lowest initiative unit alive in combat was subtracted from their initiative allowing high initiative units to potentially get multiple hits in per turn. It was pretty unintuitive and incredibly harsh, especially on base undead units since they are typically very slow. Once you understood the mechanic it wasn't so bad.

Anyways. I hope this helps a few of you understand what this is all about.

[grimwold]

yea saves going home to heal units just swap them out.

[Azaghal]

Great post OP. Here's some additional info:
Energy limits the use of potions too, not just runes. The implication is that potions are much weaker for combat purposes. For instance, you usually won't have enough energy to use more than one revive potion per battle. I dislike this change but it does force you to plan ahead and use any buffing potions before entering battle.

In campaign, you get your veteran hero for free from the start. You no longer have to wait until you have enough gold to recruit him/her, by which point that hero is underleveled and useless. This actually means that you can "main" a hired hero and let the unique hero tag along.

In most battles where you're the attacker, you can "peek" at the enemy party after attacking and choose whether to proceed or disengage. This keeps you from accidentally attacking the mob or ruin that's too high a level for you. On the other hand, if you're defending or having a scripted battle, you can't retreat.

Ruins are a mix of the D2 and Ren/Res system. Most are easy and repeatable with crappy rewards, but some are very hard and drop unique loot on first victory. Still, as noted above, you can peek at units in a ruin before engaging, which removes the risk/reward flavor from them.

No flying heroes. Makes sense, since the heroes weren't changed from Ren/Res, and you can only embark on water at specific points.

You forgot to mention it when talking about the leveling system, but units now need to gain three levels before evolving. They gain levels faster, in return. What this means is that units don't receive as huge a spike in powers when evolving, but gain power more gradually.

[Darth LisandreL]

Azaghal eredeti hozzászólása:

In campaign, you get your veteran hero for free from the start. You no longer have to wait until you have enough gold to recruit him/her, by which point that hero is underleveled and useless. This actually means that you can "main" a hired hero and let the unique hero tag along.

Unfortunately there are some missions where you do not have a city at start and have to fight for it. If your hero is not leveled you may get in trouble.

[Chronoja]

Thanks for the info Azaghal. I'll roll that info into the OP giving you the appropriate credit.

A couple of questions.

"In campaign, you get your veteran hero for free from the start. You no longer have to wait until you have enough gold to recruit him/her, by which point that hero is underleveled and useless. This actually means that you can "main" a hired hero and let the unique hero tag along."

Is this the case for all hired Veteran units? The only reason I ask is because you used the singular "hero" instead of "heroes", which suggests that only 1 party leader can become a veteran.

"In most battles where you're the attacker, you can "peek" at the enemy party after attacking and choose whether to proceed or disengage. This keeps you from accidentally attacking the mob or ruin that's too high a level for you. On the other hand, if you're defending or having a scripted battle, you can't retreat."

Do you mean that this is a pre-battle choice, so let's say you walk up to an enemy party by accident, instead of instantly engaging in battle you are allowed to decline the battle?

[Brutus]

Good day,

"The story. As I mentioned I haven't played the game extensively yet so it's possible that a few side quests have been updated / removed / added but for the most part the main over arching story is the same as Renaissance / Resurrection. To that end you are still expected to use the faction hero (Lambert etc) throughout the campaigns."

I was currently replaying the campaigns, planned to just start straight with Harhus and the Legions but already noticed some very dramatic differences there compared to the original REN: much more polished dialogue and text (still some errors, but those are more quirky than anything else), lots and lots of side-missions, reworked landscape from what I can tell and more. Was true for Lambert as well, which I am currently playing. New narrator re-did the inter-mission narration as well.

Having said that, I hadn't much touched the original RES and got stuck with REN somewhere in the last couple missions of the Legions. RES didn't change the original campaign in any capacity, did it.

flagyl2 eredeti hozzászólása:

:). You guys have too much faith in me :).

Ok...I will TRY D2 first. I have both of them here on Steam. Which one should I start with?

Thanks again santa and Psychos.

In edit-I'm going to start with Gallean's Return, the move to the Elves add-on.

As was suggested, do start with D2 first. Was my starting-point to the series, too, and I still adore the game.

You can actually play the campaigns of the base-game with RotE, which alters the 4 original races here and there (e.g. a Fire-DoT for a couple Legion-units). Not certain whether the Steam version of Gallean's Return-missions run on the same set or not.

Also, about the power-up hexes,

"Round cement disks increase melee damage I'm guessing two fold.
The stone mounds are for ranged types.An archer standing on this can also double his damage and when you think an Archer has high initiative and could get 2 or 3 quick attacks in.Standing on this can cause alot of damage."

To add to that, "rogue"-class units actually benefit from both mounds and disks. Something to consider as well when choosing structure-forks.

[bloodraven43]

nice read...thx...still going to wait for a price drop since this should have been patched into the games that people bought allready.

[Eva01]

Уважаемый издатель. Российская подразделение - - сделало все как нужно, исправили почти все ошибки, но остались недоделки. У них получилась одна из лучших ТБС после 2-й части. ПОжалуйста продолжите разработку патчей.
До сих пор нет работающего редактора карт, от чего 13 карт
Нельзя поставить союз в сетевой игре
Нет "Горных кланов" - хотя это очень большая работа.

Думаю сообщество отплатило бы Вам сполна.
_______________________________________________________________________________

Dear Publisher. Russian division - did everything as needed, corrected almost all errors, but there were deficiencies. They has turned one of the best TBS after the 2nd part. Please continue to develop patches.
Still no working map editor, from which 13 maps
Impossible put a alliance in a multiplayer game
No "Highland clans" - although it is a very big job.

I think the community would be repaid to you in full.

[serghomeoffice]

Уважаемый издатель. Выпустите патч для работы под Windows 8.1.
Не работает.
-----------------------------
Dear publisher. Release the patch for Windows 8.1.
Does not work.

[boryssobur]

Dear Publisher make patch and Mountain Clans Addon! I will buy it instantly!!!!

[Mr.Kiss]

Hey guys,

I have played for a good few hours and I thought I share some points. Psychos thanks for the details very informative indeed. I'm a big fan of D2 and also played D3 gold.
My notes are based on playing on normal difficulty not sure others will have any effect.

Few more notes:

- When heroes level up they don't get attribute points any more to distribute. Only two skill points to spend in the tree. In one way I like this as keeps the game balanced but in others your main hero becomes noticeably weaker in later maps as you progress through the campaign. You lack health and damage. Some special attacks slightly compensate but I find it still under powered. Maybe good equipment helps later, haven't played enough yet.

- unlike before some units now require two leadership points to assign it into your heroes army. large units like giants/daemons/dragons/etc... This means having less leadership points and some units taking two slots it becomes much more important what you decide to take with you.

- The equipment you find or purchase from merchants are no longer unique to one class, all classes can use all the equipments. This is a great change.

- node guardians are more balanced. Low level node guards can be easily defeated why higher level ones will just kill you. on the top of hitting very large area they now cause poison type damage over each turn. Having low level troops and receiving 100 damage plus 35 per turn means quick defeat. Plan carefully to attack such. The downside is sometimes they occupy important routes and you cannot go ahead without killing it first. May take lots of magic and two armies to take them out.

I think thats about it for now.

cheers

[Mr.Kiss]

boryssobur eredeti hozzászólása:

Dear Publisher make patch and Mountain Clans Addon! I will buy it instantly!!!!

The developer company is bankrupt so unless someone else buys the franchise this will never happen by Akella or whatever they are called... Very said I know...

[Natty La Ridge]

Give it a few years. Somebody will probably snap up the IP for a song, and release a next-gen console reboot called DISCIPLES! featuring controller support, QTEs and third-person martial arts-style combat between party leaders.

[Shadowsambition]

Thank you so much! Man I have been searching for real info on this in a way that would answer my concerns. Thank you for taking the time and energy to do this.

[Myshkin]

Guys it's about time, we put something on metacritic too. I made a start, but feel free to join in. Thanks :-)

[Azaghal]

Psychos eredeti hozzászólása:

Thanks for the info Azaghal. I'll roll that info into the OP giving you the appropriate credit.

No problem.

Psychos eredeti hozzászólása:

Is this the case for all hired Veteran units? The only reason I ask is because you used the singular "hero" instead of "heroes", which suggests that only 1 party leader can become a veteran.

I honestly don't know, I never had more than one hired hero during the campaign. In theory, you could have any number of hired heroes at max level (since training camps provide infinite xp in exchange for gold) but I don't know if all of them would transfer to the next map.

"Veteran units" tab exist in the UI, but I've never seen any use for it. My leveled hired hero just transferred automatically and spawned near the campaign hero.

Psychos eredeti hozzászólása:

Do you mean that this is a pre-battle choice, so let's say you walk up to an enemy party by accident, instead of instantly engaging in battle you are allowed to decline the battle?

Yes, pretty much that, but you can only do this on your turn. On enemy turn, s/he gets the choice. Also, some scripted battles are unavoidable (the retreat button is greyed out).