ELF RACE IS THE WORST

[Duke Ramza YT]

I have been playing through the campaigns and the elfs are so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ weak its not even funny.
they cant hit anything
they cant damage anything
they have the health points of a child ( seriously imps will slaughter their front line unless you constantly defend and do nothing.)
it takes an entire game to get griffons to level to lords
there are absolutely no training camps I can find
and to make it all worse the Hero they give you is laughably weak, GOBLINS do more dmg than he does in the beginning and now im in the 3rd mission and maybe he does as much damage as a leveled squire?!

Can anyone explain how this race hasnt been wiped off the face of the planet and how anyone can possibly stand up to the other races INCLUDING GOBLINS AND TROLLS as these digustingly pathetic creatures?!

[Karol13]

I do play them often on non-campaign maps.
After they level up a bit, they are pretty formidable.
To level em up, I get summon scrolls from the capital. Let the summon deal damage & soak enemy's DMG, and my units get EXP (sometimes I have to lose one of my units, which is not so expensive on level 1)

Elven ranged units are top notch and both melee / tank builds can also withstand good amount of beating.
Spell casters are a bit lame, compared to other races.
But healers are fine, not to mention that most OP enemies deal fire damage (against one healer can ward from)
Also heroes have cool skill trees.

Their overland spells are also quite versatile and effective.

Just managing the start-up phase with buying expensive summon scrolls and then you are good.

[Quaranir]

Well, Elven campaign is simply harder that previous ones; Elven base units have about the same stats as human yet you are often forced to fight much stronger enemies. As for heroes - high leveled Erion is actually the strongest hero in the game; AFAIR he can take capitals all by himself. He starts really weak through.

That said, Elves as a competitive faction ARE indeed seriously underpowered. Back when this game's multiplayer was alive they were cosidered pretty much step below every one else.
Their only real advantage over others is the longest ranged unit branch; and even this guys are rather mediocre before tier3.
The support brach is okay.
Griffins and especially mages are simply bad and should not be used. Exeptions:
- single teurgist for 25% physical weakness AOE in an army with a lot of phys archers
- garrisoned griffins for town defence
Melee branch units are OK for their tiers but their branches are way too short; armored guys (right branch) suffer especially hard at late game.

For bonus points,
- Elves have only 22 branch units (everyone else have 25).
- Elven summoned units are generally worst in the game; exeption is the tier5 one. Well, I guess Ent is ok.

Originally posted by Duke Ramza:

Can anyone explain how this race hasnt been wiped off the face of the planet

Funny thing - lorewise Elven Alliance was pretty much world's superpower at the end of Disciples 2 campaigns. The only serious threat to them were growing inner struggles; mostly on racial (wood vs high) or religious (DEUS VULT vs more peaceful worship) ground.
Then came new developers, and now elves are stereotypical nature-loving losers. And there is not a single mention of non-Alliance elven clans. Or Dark Elves. It' just sad :(

[Torvah]

Originally posted by Karol13:

I do play them often on non-campaign maps.
After they level up a bit, they are pretty formidable.
To level em up, I get summon scrolls from the capital. Let the summon deal damage & soak enemy's DMG, and my units get EXP (sometimes I have to lose one of my units, which is not so expensive on level 1)


Just managing the start-up phase with buying expensive summon scrolls and then you are good.

Same. I dont even use any other units. Just full archer composition, two-three summons and I beat things that standard optimized comp would not. Its so cheEZy

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Duke Ramza TTV:

I have been playing through the campaigns and the elfs are so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ weak its not even funny.
they cant hit anything
they cant damage anything
they have the health points of a child ( seriously imps will slaughter their front line unless you constantly defend and do nothing.)
it takes an entire game to get griffons to level to lords
there are absolutely no training camps I can find
and to make it all worse the Hero they give you is laughably weak, GOBLINS do more dmg than he does in the beginning and now im in the 3rd mission and maybe he does as much damage as a leveled squire?!

Can anyone explain how this race hasnt been wiped off the face of the planet and how anyone can possibly stand up to the other races INCLUDING GOBLINS AND TROLLS as these digustingly pathetic creatures?!

Wait, there are no trainers in the ELf campaign? Fug. I completely relied on them for the Empire campaign...

Originally posted by Quaranir:

Well,
Griffins and especially mages are simply bad and should not be used. Exeptions:
- single teurgist for 25% physical weakness AOE in an army with a lot of phys archers
- garrisoned griffins for town defence
Melee branch units are OK for their tiers but their branches are way too short; armored guys (right branch) suffer especially hard at late game.

If both Griffins and Elven melees suck, then what are you supposed to use for melee as Elves? I guess the Leader character, but you cannot tank with just 1 unit - or can you?

[Quaranir]

Left melee branch is ok. Not that good but usable.
As far as I remember there were only two elf army composition that were considered playable in mp:
1)Hero + 2 left branch melee + healer (any) + teurgist + archer. This composition is easier to use but weaker.
2)Hero + 5 archers (longest branch). Early game can be very hard but later they will easily slaughter pretty much anything. One archer can propably be replaced with a healer.

Main things to remember about elves - they are horribly balanced and generally the weakest race in the game. Almost half of their units are trash, t5 archers, on the other hand, are really OP. Other usable units include left melee branch (not against higher tier melee through), teurgist and all of the healers.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Quaranir:

Left melee branch is ok. Not that good but usable.
As far as I remember there were only two elf army composition that were considered playable in mp:
1)Hero + 2 left branch melee + healer (any) + teurgist + archer. This composition is easier to use but weaker.
2)Hero + 5 archers (longest branch). Early game can be very hard but later they will easily slaughter pretty much anything. One archer can propably be replaced with a healer.

I don't play MP games, but rather focus on SP. Would these compositions work in SP, too? I worry that Elf melee line will get obsolete by later missions.

Originally posted by Quaranir:

Main things to remember about elves - they are horribly balanced and generally the weakest race in the game.

Yeah, even for a newb like me, that seems obvious from a quick glance! ;)

Oh, while you are at it, could you recommend a Demons composition, too? That's another faction I have a hard time figuring out - in particular, which casters to use.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Quaranir:

As far as I remember there were only two elf army composition that were considered playable in mp:
1)Hero + 2 left branch melee + healer (any) + teurgist + archer. This composition is easier to

Also, for this composition, any archer or anything specific?

[Quaranir]

Honestly, in SP you can use pretty much anything as AI is dumb, even with it's cheats. You can try different stuff, if you want. I sometimes use underpowered units just because I want to.

The first composition is pretty much the easiest way to play elves for a new player in both SP and MP. In early mission(s) where you can only build t2 units, right branch melee is actually better. Once t3 is available, switch to the left branch.

In later missions Elf melee line WILL be less useful than melee of any other race but by this time Orion should be close to becoming one-man-army, especially if you make him drink any permament potions you find. High level Orion is, in fact, strongest hero in the game + his "Summon Ent" ability helps, so you shouldn't really have problems with tanking.

As for the archer - you can try defferent ones, maybe you'll like some but with access to t4+ left branch is simply better than other.
IMO stinger is the worst - bad stats + his main feature is supposedly stackable poison, but it's so weak that you need to apply it 3 times just to get the same damage as Empire Assassin's. One may think they'll work better in groups but nope, any other archers outperforms simply because of better stats.
Warden have alright stats but his only ability is pretty much worthless.
Sentry, again, have alright stats. His ability is better but nothing special. Funny moment - in addition to reducing movement it applies weakness to blunt. The only elf units with blunt damage are Ent (who is summoned) and griffin (who suck). Even stranger, Elf basic attack spell also apply weakness to blunt. Weird.

About demons - melee line is okay I guess. They cannot tank through. At lower tier access using Fiends instead is propably a better choice. Gargoyles are bad. Monster branch is good, awesome if you can get it to tier 4-5. The right one is OP with his petrify on hit. Casters - incubus and succubus are OP, having both high damage and powerful on-hit effects. Modeus, like other 5x5 mages, is screwed by unfortunate damage formula that make their damage too low. And unlike white mage, teurgist or archlich, Modeus do not have strong abilities. Doppelganger is a joke. He could have a chance if he was a part of melee line but in magic one? It isn't even funny. In campaign you can build some before t4 is available just to try.
Generally, you need a big guy, a mage or a few and melee line guy(s) if you want.

[Jo]

For demons, i did fairly well using 1 big demon, 1 melee dude that can evolve 3 times (weak link at the beginning), mages in the back row.

[madracc00n]

demons are the easiest i just get 2 big dudes and 1 CC mage and u stomp every fight.Elfs are the weakest until u lvl them up.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Quaranir:

As for the archer - you can try defferent ones, maybe you'll like some but with access to t4+ left branch is simply better than other.
IMO stinger is the worst - bad stats + his main feature is supposedly stackable poison, but it's so weak that you need to apply it 3 times just to get the same damage as Empire Assassin's. One may think they'll work better in groups but nope, any other archers outperforms simply because of better stats.
Warden have alright stats but his only ability is pretty much worthless.
Sentry, again, have alright stats. His ability is better but nothing special. Funny moment - in addition to reducing movement it applies weakness to blunt. The only elf units with blunt damage are Ent (who is summoned) and griffin (who suck). Even stranger, Elf basic attack spell also apply weakness to blunt. Weird.

I know the tier 5 Elf ranged is the strongest, but I am a bit hesitant because of weapon immunes. I am not sure 1 Theurgist alone can handle weapon immunes in the campaign. I had trouble as Empire with 1 White Wizard as well - and there was Inoel to contribute, too. (This actually prompts me to ask: Do you get Inoel on the Elf campaign, too?) How do you deal with weapon immunes as an Elf with just 1 caster?

Originally posted by Quaranir:

About demons - melee line is okay I guess. They cannot tank through. At lower tier access using Fiends instead is propably a better choice. Gargoyles are bad. Monster branch is good, awesome if you can get it to tier 4-5. The right one is OP with his petrify on hit. Casters - incubus and succubus are OP, having both high damage and powerful on-hit effects. Modeus, like other 5x5 mages, is screwed by unfortunate damage formula that make their damage too low. And unlike white mage, teurgist or archlich, Modeus do not have strong abilities. Doppelganger is a joke. He could have a chance if he was a part of melee line but in magic one? It isn't even funny. In campaign you can build some before t4 is available just to try.
Generally, you need a big guy, a mage or a few and melee line guy(s) if you want.

If it comes down to Incubus or Succubus, then what would you choose?

Originally posted by Jo:

For demons, i did fairly well using 1 big demon, 1 melee dude that can evolve 3 times (weak link at the beginning), mages in the back row.

Again, which caster do you use?

Originally posted by madrac00n:

demons are the easiest i just get 2 big dudes and 1 CC mage and u stomp every fight.Elfs are the weakest until u lvl them up.

Once again, which mage? There are two crowd control casters! ;)

[Jo]

I used the line that leads to level 5 all campaign long. The dudes with an eye
of Sauron in the chest. Ave Pater! They start talking in Latin at some point. Fun times.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by Jo:

I used the line that leads to level 5 all campaign long. The dudes with an eye
of Sauron in the chest. Ave Pater! They start talking in Latin at some point. Fun times.

So no crowd control? Wow, without heal and without crowd control, how do you deal with attrition?

[Quaranir]

Originally posted by Lampros:

Do you get Inoel on the Elf campaign, too?) How do you deal with weapon immunes as an Elf with just 1 caster?

You do but only at the middle of the campaign. I usually just used runes againt weapon-immune enemies. Melee guys aura (-25% elemental defence) helps too. But if you are worried, the sentry/ice archer(s) is your best option. Like I've said, they are better than both stingers and wardens by themselves + 2 out of 4 weapon-immune undead units have 50% ice weakness.

Originally posted by Lampros:

If it comes down to Incubus or Succubus, then what would you choose?

This is a matter of preference really. If you wnat to go into details:
Incubus deals heavy damage to a single target + petrifies it for 2 turns (not 1 like most such effects). With him you can easily make a helpless punching bag out of a single powerful enemy. Or disable someone especially annoying. He can't do anything else through. He also have 25% weakness to piercing damage (which will become 50% with teurgist or right rune. Ouch) but it should not be a concern in SP as you will not meet elf archer spam here.
Succubus have 3x3 AoE attack and transforms her victims into imps. These things are pretty weak but can still fight and have high initiative. Large creatures will become Fat Imps with A LOT of hp and ability to poison people near him on taking crit; transforming some of low tier monsters can actually make them more dangerous. Still, transformed units lose all of their original abilies (heal, AoE, paralyze, weapon immunities etc.) and can only fight in melee. Succubus also have an ability to teleport a close enough enemy to a hex of your choice which can sometimes be useful + she for some reason has 50% slash resistance (which is used bu a lot of melee units + assassins). As a downside, both her attack and transformation are mind effects and can be rather ineffective against units like inquisitors.
TL:DR - Incubus is exellent against single targets as both damage dealer and controller. He is much less useful against hordes of weak enemies and is scared of archer spams. Succubus is awesome at disrupting armies but isn't much against monsters and countered by mind resistance. Both are widely considered OP (and often nerfed in fan-patches).

Edit: Oh, and about heals - monster line units restore 20% of their max hp on kill. If you play right you can pretty much always keep your monster(s) near full hp.

[Jo]

Originally posted by Lampros:

Originally posted by Jo:

I used the line that leads to level 5 all campaign long. The dudes with an eye
of Sauron in the chest. Ave Pater! They start talking in Latin at some point. Fun times.

So no crowd control? Wow, without heal and without crowd control, how do you deal with attrition?

Inoel + constant level 1 spell that gives +regen. The hero dodges a lot, the big demon heals on kill. Maps also have several fountains.