A Message to the team behind Battle Realms: Zen Edition

[段皓宇]

Maybe this will be my final message to the team and my final voice here before saying "farewell" to the Battle Realms Zen Edition team. Most of the players I know are already given up giving their voice on how bad Battle Realms Zen Edition is and were hoping for a fix, and they have quitted. But I am still here still holding a little more...

This message is for everyone behind the Battle Realms Zen Edition, not specifically to Ed.

I am speaking on behalf of many high skills players, not only for myself. And I can prove this to you if you ask me. Because I see there are players that have told me why they dislike steam BR, same reason as me.

First of all, not everyone here knows who I am, so I should do a little introduction. Many high skilled players in Battle Realms know me as Ben, or BenLotus, or BenEducationNotice in the last 19 years since Battle Realms was first released. I am the owner of two youtube channels that has the most Battle Realms videos compare to any other youtube channel. Over the years, I have recommended Battle realms to thousands of players.

I started to play this game when it was still new. I am not the best Battle Realms player because the best player is subjective. I started to use "BenEducationNotice" on GameSpy in 2006, but before that, I was using [DF]CachLee on GameSpy. (Just in case if anyone here remembers me)

I know everyone here loves Battle Realms, but my love for it could be different since I play it almost every day since it got released (except the year 2013 where I travel the world for 6 months).

I played this game through many generations of players. Many group pros don't know each other, such as the group in 2005, doesn't know the group in 2009, and there are also groups in 2012, 2015, and until today. I know them all. It simply means that I play the game through all of those times and meet so many players, pros, new players, etc... Of course, not everyone knows me because I don't usually play with new players since I enjoy challenging games. So I can proudly say that I play this game more than anyone since this game existed.

When Battle Realms Zen Edition was announced, I was expecting better graphics and better compatibility to modern and Graphic Cards and operating system. I was also expecting bug fixes for common bugs. But it turns out, it's not... But it's a failure... The team behind is trying to fix things that are not necessary to be fixed. The team behind this is rushing to fix things that remove the fun factor that exist in the original Battle Realms.

REMEMBER, WE LOVE THIS GAME SO MUCH BECAUSE OF HOW IT WAS IN THE ORIGINAL... Battle Realms Zen Edition just feels like a totally different game... The team behind BR:Zen Edition does not listen to the voice of players who played this game for years, but they rather will counter with their opinions on why things in BR:Zen Edition should be.

Let me give you a few examples of some changed things before, and it got reverted back. And yet there are still more changes at a later time, which causes many of us to give up.

The Peasant Generation speed based on the number hut...
In the original game, the more peasant hut you built, the faster the generation speed of the peasant population. That's good.

I am currently happy that Zen Edition has reverted back to the peasant generation speed base on the hut. (just like the original)

But why I even brought this up? It is because I want to show everyone the team behind Zen Edition has messed this up in the first place because they don't listen to me.

When it was announced that the peasant speed will be limited at 6 peasant huts. Building more huts doesn't count toward the speed of population generations. I was totally against it. I voiced out about this in discord, but instead of looking at my point, and check respect to my experiences on this game, they decided to implement 6 peasant huts max speed anyway.

They told me that I love exploits. They said I used it to my advantage. They will say anything to make my point invalid. But after all, I don't have any power over any of it because my voice doesn't matter.

Why I was against it?

It makes sense that Strategy games like Battle Realms built more buildings to get faster production. If you build two DOJO in the Dragon Clan, you can train two Spearman at the same time. If you got three DOJO, you can train 3 Spearmen at the same time. That makes sense right? That's why building more peasant huts should give you more peasants to train. It is not easy to execute that since building a hut costs 50 rice. In the pro game scene, 50 rice becomes a very important decision whether you should save it for a hut or to make another building or train more units.

Also building more peasant hut help us show the differences between rush game, mid-game, and long game. Limiting peasant hut to 6 makes the game become so bland, not much different for a player that has map control compare to the player that just camps at the base with 4 towers. The long game becomes impossible to win since the player with map control doesn't have enough units to penetrates the towers.

And they finally realized that and brought back the hut speed of the original game. So the question is, why did they even implement that in the first place? Causing a few of my friends to quit Battle Realms Zen Edition.

And now... Why I think some exploits should not be removed...

First of all, I will talk about another strategy game called Starcraft. Starcraft was released in 1998, 3 years before Battle Realms.

They have a remaster version, all they fixed was the graphics, and make it more compatible with modern computers and operating systems- Gameplay is exactly the same. And people love it!

Starcraft has become so popular over the years, even today, there are thousands of players that still play it actively, and there are tournaments that have a prize pool of up to $25,000 USD. Yet, these games will have some exploits left for the player to make use of it. Because it makes the game more enjoyable to play. It's not like it's unfair... since everyone can do it. One example is that you can stack air units in Starcraft by adding another slow unit to your control group. They even called it "MAGIC BOXES" -- https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Magic_Boxes

Another example is "SLIDING Through Minerals" - https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Sliding_through_Mineral_Lines

Blizzard intentionally left out these exploits so that people can enjoy, and play the game. Makes tutorial for it, and passes it to other players. Games are supposed to be based on fun factors, not realism. Strategy games are not simulation games like Microsoft Flight simulators, where realism is needed.

Okay, back to Battle Realms...

The team behind Battle Realms is thinking of getting rid of Stacking units. Why?!

They just can't do it now because of sync error problems when they get rid of it. That's why they put back the stacking. But behold, once they have figured out how to prevent sync error, expect stacking fix is back. It's also what Ed wants... But Ed, let me ask you a question... How often do you play Battle Realms in a pro scene?

I know you love Battle Realms as much as we do, but you are not a gamer. You are a designer of Battle realms. You're an owner and a businessman. You design the game, but we are the players, we are the ones that experience it every day. But anyway, I still love you for making this game.

Spearman can now kill activated Dark Canopy. Oh, that's ok. I approved. This helped balance Dragon vs Lotus a little bit.

Wolf unit now can kill a tamed horse? - I disapproved greatly. Wolf vs Serpent/Dragon is already balanced in the original game. If anyone doesn't believe this, try doing 1v1 vs King's wolf, using Dragon or Serpent, and use those exploits to get off the horse to save your horse. You will still lose (for now) - Wolf is very strong. If you lose to a serpent who took advantage of getting off from their horse to save their horse and to regain stamina, all I can say is you don't have enough experience like King's wolf. Using those exploits can't help you. But leaving those exploits makes the game more fun! - I can even make a tutorial on how to do it on liquipedia just like Starcraft.

Musketeer is now weakened - I am neutral on this.

Straight-line projectile height advantage has been removing.. I totally dislike this, many have complained about this as well. They have told me. It makes the game so bland like Musk rush vs Musk rush. More units win? Or better strategy wins?

--- it sounds to me that having a better strategy wins the game is more fun than more unit wins. That's why it's called a Strategy game.

Horse is already strong in the original game, but in Zen edition, 3 horses can trample and kills all your musk. This is ridiculous.

Dragon Fire can now penetrates Dark CANOPY? - I totally disapproved of this.. Lotus is already slow, giving a chance to Whirling spear to finishes the Dark Canopied units is enough. In the original Battle Realms, I can even win another pro Lotus in using Dragon.

Players who complain they can't kill that and this or it's unfair and unbalanced, it doesn't mean that is true. Perhaps they just need a new way of playing style.

What I was really expecting when it was BR:Zen Edition was announce?
--The following bug fixes: Crash with Horse dismount, Yvain activated Crash, Smoke Stacking bug, Rock Super Push bug, Peasant shift rice and water bug, can't kill DS on rice bug, Totem machine gun bug, townsquare rice bug, Lotus yin bug, unfinished building upgrade bug.
--Graphics and compatibility to modern PC.


Now you can call me an exploits lover, I don't mind. But I know many will agree with me that it's true if a game has more things to do than a game that has fewer things to do.

[NekoEater]

"We play for the longest and you have to listen to me.
only us can justify which bug should be fix or not."
- While I agree with some of your point,but you should stop with this mindset. Your love for BR made your logic very twist. If thing was good as your claimed then why playerbase on GR a pirate version is lower than an unfinished full of problem version after all this time? (It's not justify that steam version is better though)

Wolf unit now can kill a tamed horse?
- Just poke, not kill. or you want to waste your time and chase it to the end of the earth just to kill it then ok, sure.

"Horse is already strong in the original game, but in Zen edition, 3 horses can trample and kills all your musk. This is ridiculous."
- CHEMIST : OH? ARE YOU CHALLENGING ME?
In my opinion horse damage should be nerf, since it's can be use twice or even tripple. so their base damage should be lower by half or more.

[段皓宇]

I never ask anyone to listen to me because I play the longest. It's just clearly that many good players on gameranger do agree with me, that's why I want to speak up.

Anyway, Steam is more popular than gameranger because it's something new. Old players come back to BR to play on Steam, not on gameranger.

Horse damage, if it's like in GOG, then it's good.

Take care everyone. Stay safe from the Pandemic.

[H.E.C.U soldier]

Well Ben, it doesn't matter how much time you spent with this game. This game is not being reworked for professional players so that they can use exploits to mop up the floor with newcomers, who are new to the game.

How will new playerbase be able to populate this game if they will consantly encouter people who use exploits? They will get frustrated and quit.
Also it's interesting how you say "I approve this, I dissaprove that", it's like you claim that you have more right to make decisions and opinions than others just because you have more tricks up your sleeve. It's like you think that everyone should listen to you because you are Ben. Yes I know who you are as well, so what?

"They told me that I love exploits. They said I used it to my advantage."
You said that yourself and in which part they were wrong? That's exactly what this is.

It sounds like you have some sort of personal gripe with it, I dunno. You sound bitter and angry. It just sounds more like your personal opinion and experience rather than speaking for others sake as well, that's how I see it.

[ShwangShwing]

I think removal of exploits is a good thing. This game should be friendly to new players if they want to make some money from it (a hard task since RTS games are not popular now). I would like this game to be more fun for casual players like me (pros should never be a priority).
Funny how you say nothing was changed in StarCraft: Remastered. Well, that's simply very incorrect. Global sprite limit was increased (making Valkyries much more powerful). Key remapping was introduced, which very much changes how fast you can do some things as a pro player. Also as a self proclaimed pro player you should also appreciate that having the game in 16:9 also is not purely cosmetic.

PS: as the developers already know, i would like the units to respond to my commands more readily :)

[FiendTheDarkOne]

Do you even read your own damn post before submitting? you sound like a condescending person who are afraid to relearn the game and rely on exploits and tricks to win games. Part of what a pro player should be if you even claim to be one is the ability to adapt. And seriously, what makes you think that your opinions matter more than others? There are people who absolutely hate unconventional tricks in a RTS game that is supposed to be more about "strategy".

[F A T B $ $ $ R T D]

some bugs must be removed
while its true blizzard intentionally leaves some exploits, they also removed others
why arent u complaining about that?


yes horses are very strong, and why wouldnt the wolf be able to kill tamed horses to counter it??
you are very self contradicting
the peasant spawn rate is ok
new game modes must be added, like take and hold point

[Spieleschmiede Wulfrath]

Agreed with FATBASTARD, the legacy game had some serious bugs and balancing issues, it is just normal to adress these issues and fix the game to work as it was always intended to work. No i am not coming from the perspective of a new player, i played the game when it launched with Friends etc, and i know it was that way. It is a more fun and balanced game if every player with every Clan has a fair chance of winning against the others. Even Starcraft 2, wich has been adjusted since years for now, its not perfectly balanced, but nearly in Multiplayer. Because they constantly where adjusting it to get to the current point and the game is better than ever in that department. The same could be true for BR Zen Edition if we see more updates. It is in my opinion Time to wipe the dust from the old Exploits and bugs, throw them out and make way for new and fresh, mostly bug and exploit-Free gameplay.

[Barry Chuckle]

I played the game endlessly 'back in the day' and have had great fun with it this year - the more they can refine and add to it the better, and I've found the devs to be really kind at every turn so have nothing but praise for them.

[Gullis]

As a casual BR fan since 2001 I couldn’t care less about you, or the pro scene. I love the changes in Zen, As it spices up the game a bit, and I look forward to more changes in the future.

I don't know you, and have nothing against you, but you come off as a bit entitled. Good day, and good luck

GOG.com version is till the OG, although not sure if the MP even works on that one.

[jP]

Actually I believe PvP games should be balanced around high skill players. Good players may choose to play something fun... but they are probably going to play the most effective/powerful/oppressive team composition & strategy. It makes sense to look at data from high skill games for a true indication of what needs tweaking.

For example
If 'x' is plaguing beginner lobbies yet more experienced lobbies regularly win vs 'x', it indicates the beginners will in time adapt and overcome.

[DarkRaven]

Whilst I do agree you could've put it better I guess, in the end most pro players find a meta that they use no matter what. Then again, I played it tons on release but only for fun. I still play it for fun, cant even see the differences.
That said, if I were to watch anyone play the game or listen to anyone give advice it is from pro players and not from casual players. There's a reason why most casuals have 5 viewers on twitch.

Added: But I firmly believe that any exploits should be removed once found.

[76561197960393131]

Thanks for the message, BenEducationNotice. I remember you since long time ago. :)
My nickname was [TKD]-Shigeru (my hidden identity), Idk even if you remember me. :)

I know GameRanger as well. You "1v1 freedom" freak. :D

Well, I miss you and miss other known gamers like [LOT]-Kasedo etc.

It was an oldschool game. :)

PS: I play BR since 2004 (since version 1.10j then 1.50q), only 17 years experience... I didn't notice that BR: Zen Edition exists on steam. That makes me happy. :)

I will never forget you. :)

[Banh Xeo]

Although it has been a while since OP's original statement, I just want to chime in and say that I agree with what Ben is saying. It appears that the "new" developers for battle realms zen edition have decided to reinvent the wheel and completely change the fundamentals of BR. I am very disappointed with the current changes that have been made to the game and the ones that are being planned. Unfortunately the community is not given an fair and equal opportunity in voicing concerns regarding the game, and we have the resulting outcome as such.