FG2 has significant issues with bad game design

[Repairman_Jack]

By “bad game design” I’m not talking about coding. I’m talking about balance, game structure, risk-reward mechanisms, etc… game design.

Too many of the battles in FG2 are “puzzle” battles. For a wargame (and FG2 is still essentially a wargame) puzzle battles are notorious as representing bad game design. Before you know the solution to the puzzle, the battles are too hard… after you’ve figured out the solution, the battles are no longer challenging. Bad game design.

The risk-reward system is off kilter. It should never be the case that the player wins a battle, and gets zero reward. I do like the timer-mechanism for showing decreased reward as the battles go on… but it should never drop to zero. A win is a win. If you give the player zero reward, then you’re putting them into a downward spiral where they are less and less likely to get rewards in the future. There should always be a nominal reward (ala the entire Panzer General series, and Panzer Corp).

Also, FG2 is rife with unit balance issues. Glass cannon units shouldn’t be as expensive as well-rounded troops. The unit tree’s show weird inconsistencies with some branches resulting in significant upgrades, while other are hardly any upgrade at all.
And please, don’t respond with a bunch of advice on how the play the game better. I’ve played Panzer General, Panzer General II, Allied General, Panzer General III, Panzer General 3D, Star General, the original Fantasy General, Panzer Corp, and the entire extended grand campaign for Panzer Corp… and don’t have trouble handling any of those at even higher difficulties. I don’t need advice, I just need better game design.

Clearing you’re all competent coders, and have done a nice job putting out a polished Unity project. And, many of the features of this game show your skill (the AI in this game is especially well done – nice job). But, game design is a separate talent and skill from coding a game. Please focus more attention on the design.

[Senlin]

I'm finishing The Gap scenario, on normal. It's not that hard, but I have to say in my case the enemy had 3 longbowmen, but they didn't have any trolls. Is that a matter of some branching decisions earlier? Even one troll on their side would be hard, but someone was claiming they had 3 in his (easy difficulty) playthrough, I imagine it's really impossible.

[mentant]

Originally posted by froz:

I'm finishing The Gap scenario, on normal. It's not that hard, but I have to say in my case the enemy had 3 longbowmen, but they didn't have any trolls. Is that a matter of some branching decisions earlier? Even one troll on their side would be hard, but someone was claiming they had 3 in his (easy difficulty) playthrough, I imagine it's really impossible.

Just out of curiosity, did you side with the trolls in mission 2 (making you a "trollfriend")?

[primetide_dev]

This is down to the AI choosing what to buy. I would probably just take trolls out of the Borderlands roster for this.

[masterdelvin1]

Originally posted by primetide_dev:

The AI does not have unlimited budget and manpower. AI budget is always a factor of difficulty vs player army size and level.
It also has a changing line up of units. However there are a number of ways to tackle the mission. Not least simply choosing the other one to see if it is more suitable.

True and I admit I didn't try the GAP during beta (my fault) I did play it twice both times I used my 1 mana on a wolfmother vs a siege troll which resulted in disaster :)

The other choice is "interesting" to say the least, but as mentioned many times, I love the game and you all did knock the AI out of the park. Well done.

Back to the grinder!

[sebi.serbanescu.ss]

The GAP. It went pretty well. I was pleased with my play. I had 2 hurlers and the enemy had none. It depends on the previous choices. I think if you side with the trolls and always help them, you won t meet them as opponents. Slowly but surely I crushed all opposition. Thats not a hard mission compared with what is to come.

[Qoojo]

I agree about the puzzle nature of the game.

[Senlin]

Originally posted by primetide_dev:

This is down to the AI choosing what to buy. I would probably just take trolls out of the Borderlands roster for this.

Oh, I see, that's interesting. I really think my game would be way harder if they chose to have a couple siege trolls instead of some melee units.

[masterdelvin1]

Originally posted by sebi.serbanescu.ss:

The GAP. It went pretty well. I was pleased with my play. I had 2 hurlers and the enemy had none. It depends on the previous choices. I think if you side with the trolls and always help them, you won t meet them as opponents. Slowly but surely I crushed all opposition. Thats not a hard mission compared with what is to come.

finally made it through and this may be a good point. This play through I did not side with the trolls initially and it seems I am facing more as opponents.

And agree I got pretty far in beta and these maps we are currently discussing are nothing to what is coming!

Time to dive in again. Happy Gaming! :)

[Agent]

It's hard to see how to deal with the glass-cannon-melee problem where they are almost impossible to use without getting 'em killed except in very limited circumstances. Maybe they need an ability that lets them move one or two hexes after attacking? When you're constantly fighting badly outnumbered it's tough to see a role for a unit that can't take any kind of punishment and which can't attack at range and which doesn't retreat when attacked.

Every unit needs a way to survive. Ranged/Siege units do it by shooting from, uh, range and not getting attacked. Tanky melees do it by being able to absorb some hits (though even these guys are probably still a bit too squishy here). Skirmishers do it by having a decent to high chance of retreating so they can't get gangstomped by 3-4 units in one turn. And glass cannons like berserkers do it by hiding in the back and cowering for fear of of some peasants with rocks on a stick massacring them almost by accident.

So yeah.

[Agent]

I do think "every unit needs a way to survive" is a good way to think about balance. What is a Berserkers way to contribute to the battle on a regular basis AND survive?

[jinkyslinks]

The difficulty spike after "clanmeet" seems extreme. I was fortunate enough to enjoy the beta for a few days but I didn't have enough time to play hrough either "the gap" or the other scenario until the full release. The main issue with the gap seems to be that there's only 1 way through the map, and the enemy has such a superior position and unit roster.

I've just gotten to 21 supply, (22 with the bard) but have not been particularly lucky at finding upgrade materials. I've only found 2 Armor and 1 Liquid Mana. I only have 7 surplus weapons to outfit 4 unit slots with, so I can't upgrade all of my troops. I can't afford to lose the weapons my newly minted spear maidens and slingers are carrying.

I've accepted that the loot tables are less generous, during the beta I was at the same point with 13 weapons, but still only 2 armor and 1 liquid mana, but also the power level in artifacts seems to be very high variance. On one playthrough of clanmeet I found a mask which gave my unit a range 2 fear aura (Which is found on a 4 mana/4 weapon final tier werebear upgrade!), on the final play through the clanmeet, I found a pair of boots that gives 33% chance to run away, still useful but much less so.

I knew going into 'the gap' to expect a lot of highly armored enemies (given their reputation as 'iron eaters') but the wolf mothers and troll hurlers, which are "magic" units seem a bit out of place. I was expecting my troll hurler to be my 'secret weapon' since every barbarian seems to hate trolls, but somehow the enemy has 2, and on opposite flanks. The enemy also has access to range 3 longbowmen, who are laughing at my range 2 slingers. There's not an effective way to out-range them, so I must be destined to send my troops into the meat grinder. The AOE curse spell makes this a little easier, but I still have not been able to breach the wall without substantial losses. This would be fine if I had a place to recruit mercenaries to soak the initial hits, since i'm flush on gold at the moment. It would aslo be easier to sacrifice my new troops if I could recover the weapons I spent upgrading them, but if that mechanic exists it is not communicated well to the player.

[Repairman_Jack]

To echo some of the recent comments...

There is a reason why heavy infantry existed throughout history... it worked. Sure, you can sometimes catch heavy infantry in bad mismatches (say against light horse archers) and then there aren't so dominate, but put heavy infantry up against slingers or archers in melee... and it's lights out for the ranged unit. But not in this game. You know why? Bad game design.

In this game, there is no rock-paper-scissors… just - ranged rule. Stupid. It’s especially frustrating as there is the core of a great game here. But the lack of balance and poor design decisions ruin it.

And Devs… instead of arguing with the players, many of whom have made really good comments (like no auto-advance) maybe you should notice that I posted this just yesterday and already we have 27 responses… almost all of which agree that your games has issues.

Maybe you should put you egos away and start fixing things instead of arguing.

[VanyeC]

Originally posted by primetide_dev:

The AI does not have unlimited budget and manpower. AI budget is always a factor of difficulty vs player army size and level.
It also has a changing line up of units. However there are a number of ways to tackle the mission. Not least simply choosing the other one to see if it is more suitable.

Wait, what? So if I did well in the previous levels and bring a larger army the AI gets more resources? So I get punished for doing well???

[Joystick]

I just cleared The gap... and I was able only by abusing the morale system ( I routed 6-7 enemy units). Otherwise I would never have made it ...I have played every maps in hard and normal to see the difference. So far ranged damage is litteraly decimating my troops due to damage being a bit too high but also nearly no units have shields... I mean cmon second tier spearmaidens should be given a small shield (Heck even the skirmisher have it but not the melee??). Fortify is pointless since ai never attack.... I just get burned down by ranged units. I would recommend giving a small boost to ranged defence with fortify. Berzerkers are bit too squishy... I would recommend to give them lot more health or damage resistance. Resources are a bit a hit or miss... you maybe adjust a bit the tables or something. Lastly Frenzy charges stack I had my Ulnar and Falirson with like 9 stacks of frenzy... lol... Otherwise I have been enjoying the game, I believe it simply need a small update on the subjects I have just mention.

[Fullmetal Schizoid]

Originally posted by Repairman_Jack:

Maybe you should put you egos away and start fixing things instead of arguing.

I'm totally sure such remarks will make developers fix the issues especially quickly and couldn't possibly backfire.