Berserkers make many other units useless early game

[sandman25dcsss]

I restarted my campaign again and tried Into the troolwoods at normal.
I had lots of resources so I tried something unusual instead of my typical berserkers. Here are my conclusions below:
Stag riders deal too low damage and can't really attack archers or units protected by archers. You basically get dead squad members very fast.
Javelin throwers deal way less damage than berserkers and their retreat 1 ability is too unreliable. Trolls decimate them.
Spear maidens are supposed to stop charges but my maiden got almost killed by 3 simple attacks in the open including by a cavalry (I lost about 95% HP and 75% of those were kills, not wounds).
Younglings are greatly inferior to berserkers (no surprise here since they are upgraded to berserkers) but difference is huge: almost 2.5 times less damage vs rough/forest where trolls/bears typically stay and charge not applied means I get much more damage too, getting attacked by bears/wolfhounds is devastating, huge amount of kills insteads of all wounds like for berserkers.
Trackers is kind of nice for stealing caves but then as some point it should join fights and then it is inferior to berserkers too: much less damage despite being one tier higher and if it does not retreat, it gets heavy kills too.
Basically I was really surprised when many units lost 50% HP to kills before even meeting Alice, and that's on normal (previously easy before the batch).
So I restarted the map with my typical berserkers upgrades and it was very easy this time. Berserkers killed trolls from almost full HP, recklessly attacked bears in the forest, tanked siege damage etc.
Their huge HP with lack of killed squad members changes the game in a revolutionary way.

[Fullmetal Schizoid]

Originally posted by sandman25dcsss:

much less damage despite being one tier higher

But berserkers are tier 3 unit, not tier 2, they on the same level in uprade tree and cost more than trackers both in upgrades and in skirmish mode.

[sandman25dcsss]

Originally posted by Fullmetal Schizoid:

Originally posted by sandman25dcsss:

much less damage despite being one tier higher

But berserkers are tier 3 unit, not tier 2, they on the same level in uprade tree and cost more than trackers both in upgrades and in skirmish mode.

Ok, I got confused by number of upgrades. Still both cost 3 tools to upgrade. And then you have 10 attacks (without charge) for berserkers and just 5 for trackers meaning berserkers demolish units with high number of squad members. Maybe berserkers are weaker vs units with low number of squad members like heroes and trolls? No, they have +50% damage from slayer ability.

[Senlin]

I agree that berserkers are quite OP after the buff they got. The -100% killed is really powerful, especially compared with their huge HP. It's like spearmaidens fortify skill would be always active.

I like axemen unit, but honestly, what's the point of having huge armor if you have half the HP of berserkers. It's like berserkers had same HP but 50% physical protection and 50% missile protection. And almost invulnerability against magic. And faster speed and ultimately magical attack.

I don't think axemen or spearmaidens need a buff though, berserkers need to be weaken a bit. Maybe lower their HP.

The trackers are terrible though, they need to be buffed. I was thinking, maybe remove their tracking skill and make them always see hidden enemies? The skill is really ♥♥♥♥♥♥ with its low range, requiring an action and the cooldown.

Or maybe make them invulnerable against enemy ambush? Meaning they could go ahead, trigger enemy ambush, but not be hurt by it. Or simply give them 100% retreat skill that would work somewhat similar. Maybe also give them better mobility in swamp.

[sandman25dcsss]

+1, I like the suggestions, they would make trackers much more viable.

[primetide_dev]

in conjunction with the first DLC and the associated units we are going to take another look at the balancing and will do some changes to make troops more euqally useful.
Berserkers fall prey to missile units quite easily, but as mentioned we may have gone a bit overboard in the buff they received.

[Senlin]

Zerkers have 400 HP. Heavy axemen have 210 HP. This means when zerkers are hit with missile without any protection and they lose let's even say 100 HP, they lose 25%. Meanwhile Axemen would lose 50 HP, which would be around 24%. So, counterintuitively, both units are similarly (un) vulnerable to missile units.

It gets worse to Axemen versus artillery units, because Axemen have more soldiers in their squad, so they would receive more damage from AoE.

And add to that the fact that zerkers are pretty much invulnerable to magic.

The only thing Axemen are better with is physical protection.

I'm comparing the top tiers of both types of units, as that makes more sense to me. But comparing lower tiers would bring me to similar conclusion, except non-heavy axemen are actually worse than berserkers versus physical attack (they receive around 50% more damage proportionally to theri hp).

So, yeah, looking forward to rebalancing.

[Dunadd]

I think what's needed is more making spearmen and axemen a bit better rather than nerfing berserkers. E.g giving them forced march from 1st upgrade on. Improving their defence slightly.

Without berserkers a lot of the missions would just be impossible - and without the magical damage upgraded berserkers, the missions in the swamps from Sunken Lands on would be pretty much impossible.

[Dunadd]

Originally posted by froz:

I agree that berserkers are quite OP after the buff they got. The -100% killed is really powerful, especially compared with their huge HP. It's like spearmaidens fortify skill would be always active.

I like axemen unit, but honestly, what's the point of having huge armor if you have half the HP of berserkers. It's like berserkers had same HP but 50% physical protection and 50% missile protection. And almost invulnerability against magic. And faster speed and ultimately magical attack.

I don't think axemen or spearmaidens need a buff though, berserkers need to be weaken a bit. Maybe lower their HP.

The trackers are terrible though, they need to be buffed. I was thinking, maybe remove their tracking skill and make them always see hidden enemies? The skill is really ♥♥♥♥♥♥ with its low range, requiring an action and the cooldown.

Or maybe make them invulnerable against enemy ambush? Meaning they could go ahead, trigger enemy ambush, but not be hurt by it. Or simply give them 100% retreat skill that would work somewhat similar. Maybe also give them better mobility in swamp.

I like the tracker ideas there. But I think axes and spears need improved rather than berserkers nerfed, as w/out berserkers and their magical upgrade many missions will be as good as impossible to do. With zero defence they need a lot of hit points and at least deaths to be much rarer.

I think axe and spear units could do with more hits and slightly more defence so they can carry out the roles they're meant to have - and balance them against berserkers' high attack.

I think spearmaidens and axemen and werebears should both get forced march too. And give it to heavy axemen too so their reduction in move isn't so crippling. I know the tier III spears already get forced march, but tier 2 ones need it too.

Winged maidens could also do with some magic damage.

[Tyria]

Berserkers, anyone who analyzes it, will know that they are on a class of their own as by far the best melee unit, just like the original poster said. If they didn't exist as an option, however, the other melee units are more or less balanced with one another. I personally prefer my melee units to have high durability, and I like units that look good. Unfortunately the berserkers have the best offense and defense at this time, when I would rather be looking at winged maidens and werebears.

[Malfias]

I would largely leave axemen as they are but give them maybe another upgrade to make them on parr with berserkers? Dfiferent tools for different situations etc..

[DaviddesJ]

All of the different kinds of units are good, in their own way. It's mostly a matter of taste. I don't think there's any unit that I thought, wow, these are just useless. The stealth infantry are probably the hardest to use effectively, I guess, you don't want too many of those. But, anyway, even if one unit is "better" than another that doesn't make the latter "useless". I'm not trying to recruit only the strongest possible army anyway; I'm using a mix of units because that's more interesting.

[Dunadd]

You shouldn't be using stag riders to atack archers or units with archers behind them - they're for attacking heavy infantry, spearmen, heroes, berserkers or artillery - and best way is often using their "hit and run" ability, so they move back to the hex they started in after attacking.

Berserkers in open ground without supporting units can be killed by slingers, stag riders and skirmishers. They have a lot of hits, but they have zero defence, so they take much more damage than any unit except slingers.

[Undying]

Fueled by rage is cheat. Berserkers and cleavers is imbalance.

If Fueled by rage is removed, then berserkers and cleavers will become interesting and balanced units. Strong but requiring skillful use.

Losses are the key mechanics of Fantasy General. To reduce losses, there are the skills of the hero Tough and Drill. When using berserkers and cleavers, these skills become useless.

[Undying]

Originally posted by dmcf:

Berserkers in open ground without supporting units can be killed by slingers, stag riders and skirmishers. They have a lot of hits, but they have zero defence, so they take much more damage than any unit except slingers.

Berserks: HP = 350 (275 in new beta), Armor = 0
Spear Maidens: HP = 210, Armor = 6
Axemen: HP = 210, Armor = 3

Slingers: Attack = 8*7 = 56

Slingers attack Berserker. Damage = 56. This is 16% HP Berserks (20% in beta)
Slingers attack Spear Maidens. Damage = 56 * 7 / (7 + 6) = 30. 14% HP Spear Maidens.
Slingers attack Axemen. Damage = 56 * 7 / (7 + 3) * 50% (Round Shield) = 19. 9% HP Axemen.

Berserker survivability is no worse than other melee fighters. The berserkerk attack is much higher. Even just by comparison of attack and survivability, berserkers are attractive. And berserkers still have Fueled by rage! Creepy imbalance!

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by Undying:

Fueled by rage is cheat. Berserkers and cleavers is imbalance.

So don't use them. Or use only a couple. Whatever you enjoy most. I think you can play with all Berserkers or no Berserkers or some Berserkers and any of those approaches can be fun. It doesn't matter at all if every unit type is equally "good". Because you can choose anyway.

Playing the whole game through with only one or two unit types actually sounds like a lot of fun, to me.