The difficulty in Ostranauts is deceptive (feedback + suggestions)

[Mr. Samsa]

So, some people report finding the game hard and it's easy to get into a debt spiral. Others say they're raking in the thousands with no trouble. I'd like to share my thoughts on why this is the case as well as suggestions on how to improve this curve. Take this with a grain of salt, as always, I'm just reporting based on what I experienced playing 24h with the latest patch.

I don't think Ostronauts is a very difficult game, at least at the moment. But it does have a few roadblocks that a lot of people stumble on and might make them see the game as too hard.

1 - The ship controls have a steep learning curve.

I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing, but it takes some getting used to. i lost my first three characters just trying to dock into a derelict. Once you get the hang of it, however, it's pretty alright. And fussing with the manuals trying to understand how to use the spaceship was pretty immersive, so I'm ok with that. Maybe just give a chance of zooming in on the manual so it's easier on the eyes.

2 - The scrap shop is a newbie trap

The scrap shop only buys cheap things, pays little and is not worth engaging at all when compared to the licensed shop. At first I was afraid of getting the license, after all it was a steep price for my starter character and the scrap was free. But once I took the plunge it was as night and day. Nevermind that nuclear reactors are worth close to 90K, even most bare-bones derelict usually has a few things in it that are worth over 1000 each, when the scrap shop will be hard pressed to pay that and only if you get a very good haul. I played three games and in each I managed to reach 100 K in the bank before the end of the 4th shift, including one where I took a loan on the most expensive ship there was and made payments as soon as I could. As the game stands now there is no reason to engage the scrap shop, and the illegal fence is only useful until you get enough to unlock the license, which is more convenient and buys more items, with better prices, easily making back the 5K fee. This is only if it is even necessary because...

3 - Some options at char creation give a lot of money.

The Miura hydra thingamabob is a good example. being able to sell it for 30K at the start gives such a boost that the economy of the early game gets trivialized by it. You can get an EVA suit and a license for that money, and then you're set. And, again, that's not necessarily what a beginner player might run into. But once you figure out the best choices of the career at chargen, you don't have to even worry about money at the start, and soon you'll be rolling in it after your first few scavenging trips.

All these things make for a game that is daunting at first, but becomes trivial once those initial hurdles are cleared. A player that:
1) knows how to navigate their ship
2) knows the best career options to get good starting cash
3) goes straight for the licensed store

will find the game very easy. Those that get stuck on the previous issues, on the other hand, might find it too hard.

Quick-term Suggestions:

-Either reduce possible starting money of the player and make the scrap shop pay a bit more, while limiting the fence in some way. That will give the player the progression of: sell scrap/possibly some money fencing parts -> save for license -> make the big bucks.
OR
-Just prevent the free shop from buying your scrap entirely. Then at least newer players won't get caught in the trap of trying to use it.

-Reducing the price that the licensed shop pays you might be a good idea too. In its current state, it's a bit too easy to make a lot of money once you get the license, which doesn't jive with the game's atmosphere and makes mid-late game too easy. And talking about late game...

- Add more expensive parts in stores that do the same job of the ones you can scavenge, but better. Like the Miura Hydra being an improvement on the Kang(?). This could give the player an incentive to improve their ship and get money to do so.

One way to do this could be to make 90% of all derelict parts you find have the [worn] modifier, which makes sense since they've been abandoned in the cold vaccuum of space for who knows how long, and that modifier makes them less efficient. And either you can search for parts that are [pristine] in derelicts, which will be very rare, or buy them off the store. You could also make [worn] parts sell for less, which could give the player a dilemma if they find a [pristine] part. Do they sell that [pristine] air pump for extra money or do they use it on their ship to make sure it pumps O2 faster and with less waste? Add to that different brands with different sizes, shapes or effects and it could give players a lot of variety and goals to strive for.

Long-term suggestions:

I'm looking forward to when sleep and hygiene gets added into the game, and am also seconding someone else's suggestion that you could rent rooms in the station for a day (or even a shift).

I see the full game progression as the player starting with a ship that is barely a vehicle to get them from point A to B and back, and they would have to rely on the station to be their temporary home when they need to sleep, bathe, or even use the toilet. And maybe allow a player to sleep in their initial ship, but make it uncomfortable as it would be for one to sleep in their car, with some penalties attached to players who do so to skip on renting rooms to save money.

This encourages players to get a bigger ship, customize it, and slowly but surely their ship will start becoming their real home, with beds, washrooms and maybe even luxury or entertainment objects. This could let players get really attached to their ships and help immerse them in the life of a spacer. Of course, I understand that the team is small and the team has mentioned that they can't get animal crossing levels of object variety. But just allowing the players to make their spaceship into a home, and give benefits for that, would be pretty cool. To me, at least.

Let me make one thing clear: I really like this game. if I didn't I wouldn't have written over a thousand words about it. And I've played the game for over 24 hours. Even if there were no new updates and all development stopped now, that's still less than 1$/h of play, and I enjoyed a good chunk of those hours. I consider it money well spent. But I think if, even the gist of my suggestions gets implemented it could become even better and turn into a real gem of a game, which is what I am hoping for.

But, regardless of what happens in the future, thank you for making this game Blue Bottle Games. I had a lot of fun with it.

[deMangler]

If I may add another subjective experience to this post. I only have 18 hours in the game but the OP observations here make sense so far as my experience goes.

About the initially difficult docking / ship control, which then becomes almost trivial.
Perhaps my most played computer game of all time is the original Elite. Back when I first started playing it in 1984, it was crazy hard to do anything. Docking was pretty much always death even if I made it to the space station.
However it wasn't too long before manually docking was trivial and surviving even an anarchy was... well not impossible... but it never got boring, partly because when something is initially that difficult, you never forget it and whenever you do that trivial thing it is a satisfying accomplishment. even 35 years later.
Of course Elite was a much simpler game, but I think it holds some key lessons for modern games that have held up over time.

Have a world that feels living through implication as well as in an obviously scripted way. This is neglected in so many games, To add no complexity that might ruin this is so important because in this matter one wrong thing can spoil the effect of 20 perfect things. Have as much persistence as possible, especially with NPC's, or at least the feel of it.
Have no difficulty scaling, either economically, socially, or physically, but have discover-able / procedural encounters or areas where the level of danger can be anticipated, and that have, at least some possibility to see how dangerous it is and escape before you are committed.
And, also a lesson from my pen/paper days - death means death, not in a surprising way but in a I know how I could have avoided that / prepared better. I like to be constantly reminded about how dangerous the universe is. (In Ostronauts a lot works towards this, including the sound-tack and general look/feel). But in general death can be avoided fairly easily too, if that is the enjoyed play-style.

Suggestion - how about a dead-pool type thing in stations - a spacer tradition. Odds on NPC/s of the player making it back alive? Barflies have a book running, or something.


Now, I am teaching granny to suck eggs here with my observations I can tell. The whole idea of games that are enjoyable by people who like old pen and paper rpg's thing shows the devs are far in front on this one,
I am looking forward to seeing this develop.
Meanwhile, my next game to buy is NEO SCAVENGER!

[arclight]

These are all good observations. Character creation choices make a big difference but you won't know which ones are important until a number of playthroughs - starting cash, storage and inventory space, contacts, speed of disassembly/installation, RCS fuel and O2 capacity (if any). There's definitely a need for adjustment and balance; there's a huge difference in tactics and play when you have under $500, under $5k, and over $20k.

With less than $500 in cash, you absolutely don't want to visit K-LEG because docking & fueling fees are about $450 and you will be struggling trying to raise enough cash just to leave the station. Elements currently in beta testing (expected to release in a week or so) make this less of a fatal trap but it's still a painful grind to pay docking fees and have a chance at making money.

With less than $5k, you are limited to selling low-value (s)crap at the Supply Kiosk. This is initially rather depressing because you put all that effort into finding and salvaging big-ticket items only to find that you don't have access to the buyers. It's a little like stealing the Mona Lisa - yeah, it's worth a fortune but not one that's accessible to a nobody like you. Alternatively, you can load up on junk you _can_ sell, factor in that it's going to cost $5-600 cash each time you dock and just do that a few times until you hit the magic $5k limit that buys you a salvage license. It's grindy but not nearly as grindy as selling empty drink pouches and stolen bits of station furniture to pay off docking fees.

Selling to the Fixer may be an option depending on character creation; the social combat system is still being actively developed so your chance of getting access to the Fixer is changing from version to version. It's great if it works out for you but probably not best to count on the Fixer for the your first few playthroughs. It only costs time to make the attempt so definitely try but don't pin all your hopes on it working out.

Depending on your mortgage situation, $5-20k is sort of a gray area. You can afford a salvage license and depending on what you've been able to salvage, you can really start making money. Debt collectors aren't (yet) a thing so blowing off mortgage payments and eating the late fees don't hurt nearly as much as not having cash-on-hand for docking fees, fuel/O2, and a salvage license. I find that if you break $20k, you have enough breathing room to explore more remote and more lucrative derelicts or even restore a ship to upgrade cargo space, acceleration, and fuel capacity. Once you get to a point where you've paid all your debts, have a ship with ample cargo space and good range and life support, you're at the make-your-own-fun portion of the game - you can essentially do whatever you want.

In the current v0.6.12 release, I tend to start new characters once I've hit $100-200k; that's a function of the game being actively developed and in early access. Fundamentals are still being added and tuned; those take dev time and effort away from adding more content.

Also, very nice to meet another old-school Elite player. I played the hell out of that game in the mid-80s and the whole manual docking process is still burned into my muscle memory. Also still would sell my mother for a docking computer... ;)

[arclight]

As an aside: Steam says I've played about 110 hours in the past two weeks. Lately, I've been intentionally putting my characters into really annoying situations just to see how painfully grindy it is to achieve economic comfort. Part of the fun of the game is exploration. IMO, there shouldn't be a *One Right Way* to play and 'bad' decisions and luck should only be temporary setbacks and interesting challenges, not fun-killers that cause you to abandon a playthrough because it's impossible to progress.

[LOLKAT_KOMRAD_94]

I like the wear condition on components, with varying prices etc. Dedicated make stores too to buy it fresh off the assembly line (for a price), black market dealers for rare "fallen off the tug ship" parts etc.

Prolonged use, exposure to harsh elements (high heat values, low pressure, vacuum...), errors when installing it if not skilled in that branch of engineering etc, could lead to having a rolling need to repair or change components. The worse the wear & tear on a component, the higher the risk of it failing (even [pristine] could carry some risk, depending on the make - maybe some makes are trustworthy but not too powerful, others pack a punch but tend to fail, others are really perfect but are extremely expensive and new so you would probably never find them in a derelict)

And when long term space travel becomes a thing (i'm guessing with some very powerful thruster parts not in yet, as we are talking AUs of distances), having spares on board + planning redundancies could be the difference between life and death.

That's the thing with sim games - if you proceed with caution, manage danger properly, you can make most of it routine. That's a thing I enjoy, mastering the details, but it does lead to designing classic difficulty curves for these kinds of games a bit more complicated (either the odds are harshly against you, or can feel too easy)

[Blue Bottle Games, LLC]

First of all, I want to say thanks! For both the detailed feedback here, and the encouragement. It is a pleasure reading this!

And glad to hear there are some Elite fans in the crowd. I was a huge fan of Elite II on my Atari ST, and I think it shaped a lot of my tastes.

We're overdue for updating our roadmap, and hope to get that update published soon. But you'll be happy to hear that "Wear & Tear" is a milestone on it. And not too far off in the future, either. (We have the current jobs/gigs milestone, a social "combat" one, and then W&T.)

And I think it'll be interesting to see if the job/gig changes impact the feedback on economy balance. I still think some of your suggestions are worth doing regardless, as you're right about there being some dominant strategies right now.

Ditto for making character creation a bit more balanced.

More item variety is a bit further out, but we definitely recognize the value in that, as well. If we can at least get low and high tier equipment in a handful of categories, combined with wear and tear, there should be a lot more room for aspirational shopping.

Thanks again for this feedback! And here's hoping we can give you all many more hours (days/weeks/longer) of fun!

[_WIN32_Fault_Popup]

Originally posted by Blue Bottle Games, LLC:

First of all, I want to say thanks! For both the detailed feedback here, and the encouragement. It is a pleasure reading this!

And glad to hear there are some Elite fans in the crowd. I was a huge fan of Elite II on my Atari ST, and I think it shaped a lot of my tastes.

We're overdue for updating our roadmap, and hope to get that update published soon. But you'll be happy to hear that "Wear & Tear" is a milestone on it. And not too far off in the future, either. (We have the current jobs/gigs milestone, a social "combat" one, and then W&T.)

And I think it'll be interesting to see if the job/gig changes impact the feedback on economy balance. I still think some of your suggestions are worth doing regardless, as you're right about there being some dominant strategies right now.

Ditto for making character creation a bit more balanced.

More item variety is a bit further out, but we definitely recognize the value in that, as well. If we can at least get low and high tier equipment in a handful of categories, combined with wear and tear, there should be a lot more room for aspirational shopping.

Thanks again for this feedback! And here's hoping we can give you all many more hours (days/weeks/longer) of fun!

Just take into account that there will need to be a way of dealing with wear-and-tear which doesn't involve having to completely disassemble your ship in order to repair individual components. We've discussed this a bit before, but if you intend to integrate the ship editor into the game proper as something like a hangar at OKLG where the player can modify their ship, it would be a good idea to add a "Repair All" button there (like in Elite: Dangerous, since you seem to be familiar with the earlier games in that franchise). It's one thing to make a game challenging, but quality-of-life is another matter entirely, and can be the sole arbiter between a fun challenging game and one that's just tedious and frustrating.

[LOLKAT_KOMRAD_94]

Originally posted by _VWIN32_FaultPopup:

Just take into account that there will need to be a way of dealing with wear-and-tear which doesn't involve having to completely disassemble your ship in order to repair individual components. We've discussed this a bit before, but if you intend to integrate the ship editor into the game proper as something like a hangar at OKLG where the player can modify their ship, it would be a good idea to add a "Repair All" button there (like in Elite: Dangerous, since you seem to be familiar with the earlier games in that franchise). It's one thing to make a game challenging, but quality-of-life is another matter entirely, and can be the sole arbiter between a fun challenging game and one that's just tedious and frustrating.

The way I see it proper structural design of the ship needs to include thinking of how you'll go about the maintenance of that ship too. Ie maintenance hallways to key components, easy access to conduits. And I think that out of dock maintenance should follow standard procedures:
- Finding the problem (visual feedback is important here - sparks flying from a faulty wire, blinking lights on a malfunctioning component, etc)
- Diagnostic of the problem (I need to repair / replace the faulty part)
- Fixing the problem

I think it's important in dock that you could have access to scanning tools that would run structural diagnostics, kind of like the ship diagnostic we have right now : listing components and their W&T state. It could even be something you could have as a part and install it on your ship for long haul travel.

And of course, when in dock, having an option to have NPC techs repair / build your ship with a time-to-completion to wait would be really useful & immersive too :) (use the downtime to find jobs, sell off stuff, shoot the breeze at the local spacebar and so on)

EDIT!: The maintenance hallways thing also makes me think that a very small door could be very useful to have - some kind of hatch that only needs three tiles (two sides with power access and one central which opens - or even a manual version which would be only one tile). It'd be cramped but could save a lot of room for those kind of designs!

[arclight]

There's space for both the simplicity of "Repair All" and more involved diagnose/fix/replace actions. I think of it a little like Elite's docking computer: if you enjoy complex manual docking maneuvers, you can live without it. For many people, manual docking is such a pain in the ass that a docking computer is a necessity for the game to be fun. I like being able to throw money at irritating problems to make them go away but I also like being able to fix problems via effort instead of cash.

I've been musing about how one would integrate a very simplified version of Shenzhen I/O as a diagnosis and repair minigame with voltage and signal probing, de/soldering components, cutting/repairing traces, adding bodge wires (but no assembly language programming). Something like that may be a $5 game on its own...

[South_Of_Nowhere]

I like your list. On the subject of upgraded parts, it would be nice to have parts to upgrade for a long haul trip, as well as some possible failures. An illegal black market would be cool. Drug running in a salvaged ship while trying to dodge police seems like a good time lol

[Mr. Samsa]

Originally posted by arclight:

There's space for both the simplicity of "Repair All" and more involved diagnose/fix/replace actions. I think of it a little like Elite's docking computer: if you enjoy complex manual docking maneuvers, you can live without it. For many people, manual docking is such a pain in the ass that a docking computer is a necessity for the game to be fun. I like being able to throw money at irritating problems to make them go away but I also like being able to fix problems via effort instead of cash.

Maybe that could be solved via crew? You could hire a pilot if you don't want to deal with navigating the ship and docking it, or hire a mechanic to keep repairing the ship? And make the process somewhat automated, so the player could focus on other stuff. Gives more of a reason to hire people. The game already sort of hints towards being able to hire people with different skill sets to compliment your crew, so that could fit in there, maybe? Just spit-balling here.

[Blue Bottle Games, LLC]

Good suggestions here!

We'll definitely be keeping an eye on the tedium vs. fun balance when it comes to repairs and maintenance. I think for obviously damaged or broken parts, we can auto-generate tasks to repair them such that crew take up that work without you telling them to.

And ditto for more preventative maintenance while en route.

A station-based "repair all" or "overhaul" option seems pretty likely, too. And I like the idea of making that a reason to stay put and take care of errands or R&R while you wait.

I also agree with the point about ships needing to be designed with maintenance in mind. And I think that will be an enticing differentiator between one ship vs. another. "Oh man, I hate Van Hummel designs. All looks and a pain to get to the guts. Gimme a Ryokka over VH any day."

Getting crew to do things you don't want to is also on our radar. Particularly piloting and construction/maintenance stuff. And ideally, skills play into those. (Already they matter when it comes to installing and repairing, but piloting should matter, too.)

Corey's also been hot to get some sort of preventative or tinkering action into the game for Wear & Tear milestone. Like, get your hotshot mechanic to tinker with the air pumps to increase their useful lifetime, etc.

Shanzhen I/O for diagnosis might be a little beyond our reach, though :) (However, I saw they did something almost like that for control panels with damaged components in Objects In Space!)

But yeah, these all sound really on-target for what we have in mind. I think we're aiming to have similar experiences!

[_WIN32_Fault_Popup]

Originally posted by Blue Bottle Games, LLC:

Good suggestions here!

We'll definitely be keeping an eye on the tedium vs. fun balance when it comes to repairs and maintenance. I think for obviously damaged or broken parts, we can auto-generate tasks to repair them such that crew take up that work without you telling them to.

And ditto for more preventative maintenance while en route.

A station-based "repair all" or "overhaul" option seems pretty likely, too. And I like the idea of making that a reason to stay put and take care of errands or R&R while you wait.

I also agree with the point about ships needing to be designed with maintenance in mind. And I think that will be an enticing differentiator between one ship vs. another. "Oh man, I hate Van Hummel designs. All looks and a pain to get to the guts. Gimme a Ryokka over VH any day."

Getting crew to do things you don't want to is also on our radar. Particularly piloting and construction/maintenance stuff. And ideally, skills play into those. (Already they matter when it comes to installing and repairing, but piloting should matter, too.)

Corey's also been hot to get some sort of preventative or tinkering action into the game for Wear & Tear milestone. Like, get your hotshot mechanic to tinker with the air pumps to increase their useful lifetime, etc.

Shanzhen I/O for diagnosis might be a little beyond our reach, though :) (However, I saw they did something almost like that for control panels with damaged components in Objects In Space!)

But yeah, these all sound really on-target for what we have in mind. I think we're aiming to have similar experiences!

While I'm all for a more intricate and detailed ship maintenance system, I'd caution against getting overzealous with things like immersion timers, especially those which result in being essentially trapped somewhere for an extended period. If there's one thing Elite teaches us, it's that sometimes too much arbitrary "immersion" ruins the pacing of the game and detracts from how fun it is to play (or in the specific case of Elite: Dangerous, potentially locks players out of access to core gameplay elements for unreasonable amounts of time). Games that are too heavily biased toward realism without reason are often less enjoyable and/or more frustrating than those which judiciously prioritize QoL, and speaking from 30+ years of experience in both gaming and game dev, my personal view is that you have far more leeway for emphasizing QoL than you do for emphasizing immersion. This is because systems which make a game more like real life also tend to inherently make it more tedious, which can cause the gameplay loop to wear out its welcome very quickly. Ultimately you need to look at a feature like immersion timers and ask yourself, "What does this do to improve the experience? Will it make the game more fun? Will it actually add anything positive? What negative impacts might it have, and how likely are they to outweigh its benefits?" Having slogged my way through a fair few games that went too hard on immersion purely for immersion's sake, my humble but nonetheless emphatic advice on the matter is, "Less is more."

[deMangler]

Elite dangerous is a good example of how to do immersion completely wrong. Not unusual for an MMO. My view is that immersion does not have to be harmed by detail, however it can be if it is obviously arbitrary, or a game-mechanic for a game-mechanic's sake. Elite dangerous is full of this kind of nonsense which is a shame because one of the initial design goals seemed to be to avoid it.
i think Ostranauts has a good foundation to avoid this. As long as these, (in any other game, immersion-breaking) details or difficulties, as long as they arise in a way that is consistent within the world, as a result of in-game events and player choices, they will add to immersion.
This is one reason why persistence of the game-world is important. I for one would find it fulfilling and to be honest surprising - in a good way, if Ostranauts, or any other game were to go down this road.
I agree less is more, or even none is best, when it comes to arbitrary additional stuff, but when it comes to actual persistent game detail and depth, even complexity, I am of the more is better school. Although to be honest I can hardly think of any existing examples.

[Furiant]

Originally posted by _VWIN32_FaultPopup:

...Ultimately you need to look at a feature like immersion timers and ask yourself, "What does this do to improve the experience? Will it make the game more fun? Will it actually add anything positive? What negative impacts might it have, and how likely are they to outweigh its benefits?" Having slogged my way through a fair few games that went too hard on immersion purely for immersion's sake, my humble but nonetheless emphatic advice on the matter is, "Less is more."

I think patch notes ought to be written before the changes are implemented, in the following format.

• The game is now more fun because: <description of change 1>
  
• The game is now more fun because: <description of change 2>
  
• ...

That way if it sounds stupid when you read it out loud, then it probably is, and you shouldn't implement it.

[aplethoraof]

Originally posted by _VWIN32_FaultPopup:

Originally posted by Blue Bottle Games, LLC:

First of all, I want to say thanks! For both the detailed feedback here, and the encouragement. It is a pleasure reading this!

And glad to hear there are some Elite fans in the crowd. I was a huge fan of Elite II on my Atari ST, and I think it shaped a lot of my tastes.

We're overdue for updating our roadmap, and hope to get that update published soon. But you'll be happy to hear that "Wear & Tear" is a milestone on it. And not too far off in the future, either. (We have the current jobs/gigs milestone, a social "combat" one, and then W&T.)

And I think it'll be interesting to see if the job/gig changes impact the feedback on economy balance. I still think some of your suggestions are worth doing regardless, as you're right about there being some dominant strategies right now.

Ditto for making character creation a bit more balanced.

More item variety is a bit further out, but we definitely recognize the value in that, as well. If we can at least get low and high tier equipment in a handful of categories, combined with wear and tear, there should be a lot more room for aspirational shopping.

Thanks again for this feedback! And here's hoping we can give you all many more hours (days/weeks/longer) of fun!

Just take into account that there will need to be a way of dealing with wear-and-tear which doesn't involve having to completely disassemble your ship in order to repair individual components. We've discussed this a bit before, but if you intend to integrate the ship editor into the game proper as something like a hangar at OKLG where the player can modify their ship, it would be a good idea to add a "Repair All" button there (like in Elite: Dangerous, since you seem to be familiar with the earlier games in that franchise). It's one thing to make a game challenging, but quality-of-life is another matter entirely, and can be the sole arbiter between a fun challenging game and one that's just tedious and frustrating.

IMO - you could have the ability to use scrap to patch up individual parts (just by right-clicking them and patching them up).

Then maybe if your character has mechanical engineering, they can do some more indepth modifications to parts to make them better using scrap. This would be more involved, maybe stuff like adding in new functions + rewiring to those new functions.

And then, you could have your repair all button - which would just be signalling the station's engineers to fix your ship for a fee.