Ancient Israelites

[✝ Gamlingwine]

I doubt anyone will be willing to discuss this here, but I don't want to make accounts to post this elsewhere.

Briefly said: if you wanted to play an Israelite-like faction, what civ would you use to "pretend" to be doing that?
Both history and mechanics wise criteria should be considered; for example, you don't want to be using the graeco-roman or the east asian civs, and using an elephant civ cannot be historically accurate as the historical Israel isn't known to have used any war elephant.

My choice:
After some analysis I decided the Babylonians are the best bet.
PROS: strong defensive structures (Israelites had a few fortified towns including Jerusalem)
Strong chariots and archers, half decent infantry (this should reflect the historical armies of Ancient Israel and Judah)
strong priests (need no explanations)
Poor elephants, cavalry and navy (none of which were primary elements in Israelite armies)

CONS: Babylonians had a pretty rough story with the Israelites and they thus don't work too well if you take in the "immersion" factor.

Any insightful comments will be greatly appreciated

[jonoliveira12]

Abraham came from Ur, and Israel have always associated themselves with Babylon, as far as ethnicity goes. There is also the Phoenicians, a very similar culture that is also often used to play Canaan.

[SwatB2]

That would be so cool!

[✝ Gamlingwine]

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Abraham came from Ur, and Israel have always associated themselves with Babylon, as far as ethnicity goes. There is also the Phoenicians, a very similar culture that is also often used to play Canaan.

I didn't know Israel associated itself with Babylon, in respect to the race/ethnicity. Surely all semitic peoples of Mesopotamia are related to one another, and Israelites don't make a difference. Their relationship as ancient nations is what bothers me.

Phoenicians didn't have bad relations with Israel and in the Bible (King Hiram I) a Phoenician ruler even helps Solomon in building the Temple. The problem with Phoenicians is they rely on elephants, and neither Israel nor Phoenicians actually used elephants. I think the association the developers made is that Carthaginians are closely related to the earlier Phoenicians and they did use Elephants on certain occasions.

[jonoliveira12]

Originally posted by Ioannes Bononiensis:

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Abraham came from Ur, and Israel have always associated themselves with Babylon, as far as ethnicity goes. There is also the Phoenicians, a very similar culture that is also often used to play Canaan.

I didn't know Israel associated itself with Babylon, in respect to the race/ethnicity. Surely all semitic peoples of Mesopotamia are related to one another, and Israelites don't make a difference. Their relationship as ancient nations is what bothers me.

Phoenicians didn't have bad relations with Israel and in the Bible (King Hiram I) a Phoenician ruler even helps Solomon in building the Temple. The problem with Phoenicians is they rely on elephants, and neither Israel nor Phoenicians actually used elephants. I think the association the developers made is that Carthaginians are closely related to the earlier Phoenicians and they did use Elephants on certain occasions.

In the book of Isaiah, God reminds the Hebrews that they descend from the Chaldeans (the actual name of the Babylonyan ethnic group), and that He would have no issues replacing them with the Chaldeans, if Israel continued on it's path of sin.

Also, the kings of Tyre (Phoenicia) maintained an elite Elephant corp at their own expense (directly from the royal coffers), with Elephants they traded from India, because thy were not only such an effective terror weapon, but also an impressive display of power.

[✝ Gamlingwine]

Thank you for your insights, you're being very helpful. I am now torn between these two civs and will pick one or maybe play both interchangeably.

Just one last thing: I searched for the verses in Isaiah where God states the ethnic tie Israelites have with Chaldeans, but I didn't find it. Do you know what verse you meant, by any chance?
It is true what you say regardless, because in Genesis Abraham is said to have come out of a Chaldean town, but the verse you mention seems far more explicit.

[jonoliveira12]

I am sorry, but it appears I was wrong.
It is in Ezekiel 12:12-14.

[Barrelmaker]

I'm necroing this thread to say that I'm at least storyboarding a campaign based on precisely this, and because Abraham was from Ur as jonoliveira12 pointed out, I'm actually going with a customized Sumerians for this. Sumer is ancient enough, and still has Mesopotamian architecture while not associating precisely with Babylon.
Now I just have to figure out what to do in AOE2DE...
EDIT: customization means things like disabling elephants and horse archers, and providing unique civ bonuses for slingers, as they had some of the most skilled slingers in the world. Will post my working civ map upon request.

[✝ Gamlingwine]

Originally posted by decimator1337:

I'm necroing this thread to say that I'm at least storyboarding a campaign based on precisely this, and because Abraham was from Ur as jonoliveira12 pointed out, I'm actually going with a customized Sumerians for this. Sumer is ancient enough, and still has Mesopotamian architecture while not associating precisely with Babylon.
Now I just have to figure out what to do in AOE2DE...
EDIT: customization means things like disabling elephants and horse archers, and providing unique civ bonuses for slingers, as they had some of the most skilled slingers in the world. Will post my working civ map upon request.

Seems like a good idea. I'm not playing aoe de much anymore but when I do I'll give it a shot.

As for AoE2, not sure what you mean, but there was no Israel anymore. The Christian semites, including the Ghassanids, served under the Eastern Roman Empire though.

[Steven]

This thread was quite old before the recent post, so we're locking it to prevent confusion.