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Discussions Rules and Guidelines
11 
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In my oppinion, mana power is only so useful. if you can run your most expensive spell, basically for all eternity at max speed, without investing too much of your mana pool, you don't really need more mana power at this stage since you don't gain much from it, since you're already casting as many spells at possible and you're probably using like 0.00001% mana cap on it.
mana cap from exp shop, to me, is just a small buffer, but won't really matter. 2e15 matters little when you have 1e25 mana cap. and mana cap from exp shop isn't where you're meant to get that nice mana cap from.
eg: you have 20.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 (2e25) (or something like that) mana cap. if you hadn't purchased any from exp shop you'd have: 19.999.999.998.000.000.000.000.000 mana cap.
that's a fair bit of 9's before those 2e15 comes into play, that you got from exp shop.
having a nice mana cap, to me, only serves me at the beginning of a run - for conjuring, when I'm done with that, if no t6 (demon market and ancient library) can be built, I'll basically burn all mana on running my plaza at max available levels (at diminishing 4 levels per tier. eg. 60-56-52-48-44).
if I can't conjure, and I only need a fragtion of my mana cap to cast spells, my mana is just sitting idle, doing nothing, might as well use it on my plaza and get some extra perks, which pays me back since it increases perks gained from baby demons.
best option for mana cap increase: to my knowledge: only mana refill has any influence on getting you more mana cap. don't think power has any influence at all on getting you closer to eg. 1e30 mana cap.
if you're planning to reincarnate in the near future, grab that waifu/slime (mana cap rate/mana reill) and put some gear on. put your demons on mana refill, cook some mana refill and mana cap rate food and put that conjurer as main and druid as sub. check your calculator to see how many demons you can get with what amount of mana cap. maybe waiting 5 more minutes will get an extra conjuring, which might just be what grants that extra baby demon.
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plaza: presumably something to work on here, not sure if there're 2 "dots" missing. ei. 2.000e12 mana refil, and again with: 2.000e12 mana power. but if that is truly 2e15 mana refill, you have more mana refill than me, and with a worse plaza than me.
it's always nice to have a mana refill, or a mana cap waifu/slime in the background. I use a mana refill waifu/slime and equip mana cap gear when I need my mana cap back. (presumably a mana cap waifu/slime and mana refill gear, would be a better option, but I haven't had luck finding a good mana cap waifu, so can't test that hypothesis. but either one, is better than none of them)
use your mana cap on that plaza, as high as your refill allows you to. ei. so you don't sit waiting for that last 1 plaza building.
turn that mana cap into something. you can always earn it back and to a proper amount too, without too much effort, if you bet all horses on it, ei. gear, food, waifu/slime, druid class, demons on refill.
remember to put conjurer as main, this will also help with mana cap (presumably not as much as if druid is main, but those class change tokens are a bit too scarce for me to squander like that, when I need conjurer as main when the run begins, for those additional demons, can't have him sitting just as sub)
I find it to be a worthy investment to cook mana refil and mana cap rate food to get a few extra max levels on plaza (use calculators and estimate if you can reach higher levels and go with that, something to do with that nice mana cap on a new run, after conjuring is done)
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your refills: definitely something to work on.
mine is onlt 3e6. and that's way too low from where I am in game (and I'm not that much further ahead than you)
bits of (hopefully useful) information:
these can help to increase hell spirit gained from baby demons per tick
cooking can increase it. (page 2, second from bottom)
perk shop can increase it. (page 3, below gathering resources (500e9 perks for level 1))
druid class at level 100+ will get a 1% per level for it.
crafting (deleris gem) can increase it as well. (all gear, including gems from crafting, yields a 10% boost of their stats to your overall stats, so if you have gear that is not max level, go grab it. if some of the gems are not maxed, get crafty)
more baby demons will increase base refill amount.
demonic essense increases from demonic essense gathered in battlefield (1 increase for every 1k demonic essense gathered in battlefield)
a nice waifu/slime can do wonders.
cooking food around reset will also help (remember to cook demonic essense food! <-- very important! extra battlefield damage for extra wave clearing and wave hp reduction to make it hurt more).
battlefield damage gear will help clear additional waves on top of everything else.
perks: you get 1 perk increase per 1k perks from plaza (this is where constantly burning your mana cap will get some extra perks in, per prestige)
waifu/slime can do wonders for your prestige income.
food can also help.
gear will also help
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slime juice: 2 minutes and 40 seconds worth of max juice from slime adventure. this only cares about the max stage you can kill, and what the reward for it is. if your max stage is eg. stage 100. boosting the reward, and still killing level 100 will still yield 2 minutes and 40 seconds worth of that reward. ei. if standard reward is 1000 slime juice. boosting that with food etc. to 2000 will grant you 2 minutes and 40 seconds worth of 2000 slime juice (it's probably 320k slime juice, but I suck at math and I'm tired))
food (both juice and attack (and if you're willing to put in a bit of work, slime exp as well, to get some extra slime levels which will grant additional attack power, which means higher stage cleared, which means more juice gained, which means more juice from babies)
gear will do wonders (personally I use sz7-8-9 slime gear (as I also get additional essense from that, which I can turn into even more juice on the slime prestige page))
training exp: according to chat: this is forever 1500 training xp per tick, which is basically worthless when you need hundreds of millions worth of exp for even 1 level, and you probably take like 10 seconds per 1500 exp.
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plaza vs. synergy: I usually wait with perk gathering until I can get a few upgrades I really want, within about a days time of doing so, or until I can get some upgrades that don't really mean much to me, within a couple of hours (gold comes to mind)
personally, I don't like spending about 1 day just to get 1 upgrade, unless it's something I'm actually focusing on, eg. the next gem in line.
spending a day and getting 3-4 upgrades in a day, is much more to my liking.
it's most likely not the best way to do things, probably borderline *clears throat*, but that's what I do
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anyways mate. that's my 2 cents of, hopefully not just utter *clear throat (again)*.
I do hope I haven't just wasted your time. hopefully I've helped at least a tiny bit with something in this hell of a mess of a post.
there are probably dozen of things I've not explained as well as needed and should there be questions, do feel free to ask them and I shall attempt to answer them.
take care all. remember to stay hydrated, cause a moisturized face is a happy face.
I mean...
Power multiplies with the amount of mana invested in a spell to determine how much xp each spell is getting, and once a spell has enough xp to gain levels at max speed you aren't going to see any further benefit from increasing power or investing a higher amount of mana on it.
Spending xp on cap can only be relevant on what things are like for you when starting challenges (or relevant for what things will be like for you throughout a no rebirth challenge). Where the power and refill stats use various bonuses throughout the game as multipliers to boost your base values, the cap stat does not apply any multipliers to the base value. Gains to your cap are simply added on top of the base.
But with mana refill any increase you can get in that stat will have an effect on your gains for the next life's cap. Next life's cap increases by 1 for every X mana created (find this line in the tooltip for mana to see what value X is) and mana refill affects how much mana you create each time the bar fills up.
thank you for making more sense of my mess of a post. you have done an exellent job at explaining this, and I for one, truly appreciate it. thank you :)
take care, and remember to stay hydrated
So far, there was a typo in mana power and refill it was supposed to be 2.000e12. I have a few nice slimes to help with certain parts of the game.
@Bambus, with the conjuring being main class and gaining more baby demons, for some reason unless i am wrong, it only goes so far.
I have -116% for Conjuring however being main class, it didn't gain me any extra demons than i already had.
I am currently farming XP to burn on the shop also.
With page 3 of the perk page, i am focusing on Generator bonuses and Prestige Perks.
With mana cap i've been using a Mana refill slime + Max demons on refil and mana cap adventure itemsl, cooking and using pots when i can, it has a higher benefit than using only a Mana refill slime. I'm sure that i am bottle necked due to having lower synergy. My current Mana cap in BF = 500% and in Hell 700%.
With slime alchemy am using 5 demons for the slime refills which help massively with accumulating with adventure for extra juice.
@Muljostpho with the Mana cap, i have found dumping Xp into it has massively boosted my mana cap majorly as it pushes the current cap above what you're already at. It does help with a good baseline for challenges, however give it a go and see.
From my advice, focus on Synergy, clearing dungeons, building xp, classes and the generator.
With slimes for museum, i'm using essence & mana refil they're extremely important to have to boost your gains. However i'm sure i'm only a noob too lol. There's still alot to learn.
Maybe there's some sort of tipping point on that which I haven't reached yet?
I have dumped some xp into mana cap before. I've got my base up to 100e9. But my total right now is about 2.2e18, or that could be about 4.2e18 if I reincarnate right now. I have about 65.2e18 xp on hand at the moment and if I were to dump that all into base mana cap it would get me a base of about 2.4e12. So I could burn it all to gain about 0.0001% as much mana as my current total, or that's about 0.00005% as much mana as I'll have after reincarnation right now. So why would I bother with spending xp on that? All the spells (which are just the default spells, I have no OPMs done yet) are massively overcapped with my current amount of mana. (They've been that way for a long time, since a much lower cap than this.) And a purchase of that amount isn't going to tip me over the line into the next level of any of the conjurings.
For comparison, I currently have about 2e9 base refill (about 290e27 total) and about 500e6 base power (about 1.2e30 total). Dumping all of my current xp into either of those could get me about 1.2e9 base refill or about 2.1e9 base power. (Although it doesn't seem like I currently have any reason to care about more power anyway.) And I know that multipliers would translate an increase in either of those bases into a noticeable increase in the total as well.
Anyway...
I'll try to summarize where exactly I'm at in the game, for some context on how far behind I am...
* Highest stage: 389
* Challenges that aren't maxed yet: Farmer Life (2/3), Real Estate (0/6) (yeah, I know, you're going to point out that I ought to do the first one to get auto plaza and start farming perk points that way), OPM (0/4), No Reincarnation (0/4), and whatever that last one is (still locked for me)
* Minion is level 254. Upgrades on minion page are at 70, 150, and 100.
* Minion Lab: the 4 on the left are all maxed, the 2nd and 4th ones on the right are maxed and the 3rd one should be finishing soon as well
* Adventure: highest accessible zone is Z15 and I'm working on leveling its gear, almost everything from before that is maxed, crafting levels are at 50.6 with 10/750 in the Superior+1 Celeris/Polaris/Deleris gems and all previous gems maxed. Fishing level 75. Cooking level 32, with categories within cooking ranging from levels 17 to 8.
* Waifu / Slime: Genealogy level 85, I've been getting a lot of them up to somewhere around 130-150 before I have to turn them into slimes. The slimes seem to be reaching somewhere around stage 70-80 as the furthest they can go. In the alchemy lab I'm about halfway to having enough slime juices to unlock the 6th upgrade in the slime lab. In the slime lab I've got levels 140, 60, 20, 10, 0, and locked.
* In the generator I've been working with amounts of essence in the e30 range (currently working with spirit cap around 900e6, by the way) and I've built up 135% in v2's demons bonus.
* Dungeons... 23 shadows fighting. The dungeons in the left column are at floors 215, 187, 86, 136, 152, 145, and 101. The dungeon in the right column are at floors 100, 90, 144, 41, and 51.
* Classes: battlemage 316, druid 202, conjurer 241, demonist 261, beastmaster 161, animist 125, machinist 36, cultist 9, and the last one is still locked.
* Battlefield... I guess the highest wave they reach is somewhere around 200 or so.
* Town Plaza: 65 Hell Well, 65 Aqueduct, 60 Arena, 60 Commando Post, 55 Magic Circle, 55 Genetic Laboratory, 50 Dwarven Workshop, 50 Adventurer's Guild, 45 Blazing Fields, 2 Underworld Academy (I don't think gather xp is a good idea before completing the last Farmer Life challenge, right? Since higher levels make it go slower.) And I have 50 Ancient Library and 9 Demon Market.
* Perks: Nothing on pages 2 and 3 is anywhere remotely near my price range. (A lot of the second and third lines under general on page 1 are rather pricey, as well.) On page 1 I've purchased/maxed the battlefield stuff, the first 2 lines up top, the first line under general, and the museum bonus that's first on the second line under general. I've bought a few levels (like 10 or less) here and there in everything else on the third and fourth lines up top, but I've been focusing on maxing out offense and defense (got them each at 450/500 right now).
* Demons: 40533 cap in the current run, 57 babies (I picked up the unique trophies that boost them), and the fields that the babies can work on produce 123 hell spirit refill, 454819 demonic essence, 55 plaza perk [/i](yeah, I know, you're going to point out how horrible this is)[/i], 6971 slime juice, and 1500 training xp.
* Trophies: Most of the common, rare, epic, and legendary are picked up, with the exceptions being both of the gathering xp trophies (rare), the 2nd generator charge time trophy (epic), the 2nd battlefield summon trophy (legendary), and the 2nd minion crit trophy (legendary). I've picked up less than half of the unique trophies. For minion lab levels and baby demons I've picked up both of each of those. For slime lab levels and world boss respawns and battlefield timers I've picked up nothing yet from any of those. And for the rest I've just picked up the first one for each of them.
EDIT: I have two museum slots and they've currently got (Mana Power / Spell Bonus / Essence Gen.) on one Waifu and (Spirit Refill (Demons) / XP gain / Perm Demons) on the other Waifu. I forget which boosts specifically I had tried to secure when putting each of them into the museum.
but to some degree you are right about conjurer class, getting 1% additional cost reduction, isn't gonna have much effect at the end of the day. but having it as main vs. sub, does help.
with my current setup in calculator with conjuring, I would have lost just about 400 demons if I had only placed conjurer as sub. admittedly, it didn't change the 2 baby demons I gained from my recent reset.
but getting conjurer to the thresholds (to the next 15 levels), getting mine to the next one, will grant close to 2000 additional demons, with current mana cap and that I have both baby demon trophies, it will give me 3 additional baby demons, but only if conjurer is main, if I set it as sub, I lose about 350 demons, and with those I also lose out on a baby demon, and that's just from changing conjurer from main to sub.
To break the 450 barrier and beyond I've found boosting generator to be the best return by leveling Machinist and using talents to help. Once machinist is over level 100 you get a generator bonus and the feedback loop as mentioned in the wiki.
I find synergy to be far better than plaza and tend to neglect the latter more than I should. I probably spend about 1/4 of my baby demons on perks, but I focus on either perks or synergy due to waifu|slime and equipment boosts. If you have Necromancer then stick talent points in the perma trait and get hell spirit high to buy cheap battlefield buidings for mana cap and perks.
I'm probably forgetting something as my waifu's had a large increase around then for reasons I'm not quite sure on (jumping from level 200ish to nearly 300ish.)
Focusing on leveling your classes is currently pointless because once you hit ~400% class exp from generator you will be able to soft cap all your classes except machinist + cultist in one single day.
Your slime juice gain is quite low, you need to focus on training better slimes for the adventure.
Getting the baby demons trophies in unique should have been your priority over slowly maxing every single availiable trophy, next will be 6 synergy bonuses.
Newbie class change from unique is pretty QoL because you will do rebirths on regular basis to buff your essence gain.
Your next months are going to consist of you sitting on Machinist + Cultist while building a giant generator which buffs Machinist which buffs the generator and synergy which in turns buffs the generator. That will be your life until 500 with a powerspike on 475 from unlocking talents.
You can try to be little more minmaxy and do something like - last 3 bonuses in Sin at 100%, last 3 bonuses Tan at 50% but honestly its all about the generator + synergy generator. I also kept 5 babydemons in Off/Def + Gold + Exp because it allows me to skip first tab completely while doing synergy 24/7.
EG. Page 1: 16,16,16,8,4,2, 1 or 32,16, 16, 8, 4, 2, 1, or 64,32,16,8,4,2,1? or any double of previous number?
E.G Page 2: The same as above or different?
E.G Page. 3: entirely different or same layout, just longer wait times?
Does a difference in number of Baby demons invested in another page make any difference to layout? besides taking longer? i know that well as far as i consider training "Synergy" i focus directly on one page at a time. ( I don't have and don't know if there's a significant way to train all pages efficiently at once?)
I've noticed that some of my Synergy ranks constantly change their bonus and move around, they don't stay still and it may have a negative impact on different bonuses. (Either that or i'm doing it wrong).
As for calculators i really don't know how they work with the demons. I've only found one i think which is Alex's calculator. While i'm pretty basic on the mechanics of it. As far as i know there is only one Synergy page thats coded. As all know of the functionality of the calculator is basic knowledge. I;m not sure how it really works.
I am slowly building HSS for Plaza Perk Prestige. By shuffling around Baby demons from Synergy and cycling them every so often to different catagories. Eg. Demonic essence to increase the bulk buy to increase the Plaza Perk Prestige cap.
Is their something better i could be doing efficient?
I am currently max. stage 536. And yes the game slowed quite a bit down the last 100 stages and i think it is not entirely clear what is the best way to get through them. But however for me fishing was a big part to close some gaps. Somewhere along the way you will get training lvl 100 which is a huge boost. The mentioned feedbackloop of synergy and generator gets greatly infused by reincarnationbonus which benefits greatly from reinc, gen,slime & alch fish.
For me picking 1 class and focusing everything around 1 bonus worked quite well. After some time switch to another bonus and so on. The next day switch to another class an work on its related bonuses. Machinist will become more and more important so I am using it nearly every 2nd day as main (It gives me more classxp bonus then the trait-bonuses)
I am curious, starting from 500+ did you go even on synergy bonuses like 2 4 8 etc with spreading demons evenly everywhere or did you just all in generator bonus with some perk work occasionally?
What active slimes do you use, pure resource's + a mixture of Gen slimes. Or just pure Gen slimes to help with the select classes? (Mach + Cult)
Resource slime feels weird, i jumped from 100e15 logs per gather to 700e15 logs in about 1.5 weeks without using it, just from the generator. It would be an overkill to use it now since i am crafting current gem tier and it didnt help me at all before.
So last few months been a pain to get to stage 500. Now that im here i easily reached 520. But now i really cant see how im gonna get to stage 550 without spending way more months at it. Everything's pushed.