is Persia invincible?

[Nukoolamukmuk]

I tried to fight Persia and slow down their plague-like expansion. This is my third attempt. In my first as Egypt, massed Jewish uprisings of high quality heavy troops and cavalry sprang up everywhere while Ethiopia and other tribes rolled up from the south to crumble Egypt like an old ruin falling apart before I could shoot a single arrow at Persia. In my 2nd attempt as Babylon I did good with my field army sweeping through their provinces, but lost some of my own cause I didn't have garrisons everywhere and the Babylon empire is a house of cards on the brink of collapse because the king worships a moon god and Persia can acquire provinces without a fight if they are low on loyalty and unprotected.

This time I did better with small security forces on border provinces to hold off the leech style Persia takeover, fend of the endless raids and to repress the people's hatred of the moon god, but the Persians sent their deadly Cyrus II field army to smash my army and that was the end of my dreams of protecting the biblical world from tyranny.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2731613973

I am wondering if other players were able to roll back the inexorable Persian expansion?

[Hannibal0216 도마도 재배자]

I've tried it with Babylon... Still haven't succeeded.

[Nukoolamukmuk]

Hannabil, any lessons learned? I am thinking it is better to push back at Persia from the north instead of the east which is near the Persian capital and more heavily defended. Media gets gobbled up fast without a fight so the north is ripe to be invaded with no Persian garrisons yet. Also the Babylonian provinces in the north and in Israel are disloyal so a buffer zone would helps a lot to prevent those provinces from switching sides to Persia on a whim.

[TRex1983]

I played as Lydia. tried many others and didn't succeed. As Lydia, I played defensively 3 times (3 separate wars with Persia) before I ended up gobbling up Greece after the first war with Persia, and took most of Egypt in between war #2 and war #3 with Persia. After that I was able to get a bit more cities from Persia to eat away at their Legacy points generation. Its quite a long game, i think I did +200 turns if I recall correctly. I don't think I would try another time... I still have PTSD from all these death stacks of Immortals showing up on my borders.

[Nukoolamukmuk]

TRex, sounds like it was very easy to gobble up Greece and Egypt which seems like a hard thing to do. Greece is supposed to be one of the powerhouses of the era. How were you able to 'gobble up' Greece with such ease especially considering they also have walled cities to besiege? What about Macedonia?

It sounds brutal facing deathstacks of immortals cause I was whipped by them as Babylon and so I know their combined advantages of strong bows, huge shields and also good melee skills making them a pain to fight.

I wonder how Mac or Athens would be able to gear up to fight Persia? Mac was able to defeat them totally which seems incredible now. I think the immortals portion of their historical army may have been somewhat small. I have the Tin Soldiers Alexander the Great game which has a great variety of Persian infantry, archers and cavalry.

[jaersavo]

I only have MP experience but I was able to stop a good player leading the persian forces as Sparta. You need to accomplish 2 things, become an empire because it unlocks even more top tier troops and increase manpower. When Persia had conquered all of Media, Babylon, Lydia and some areas in the east and north, Sparta had all of Greece and some regions north. Due to constant fighting Persia's war attrition was already high. So I actually did for a few turns nothing but waiting till they reached the Lydian coast and landed my elite army giving directly a devestating blow to the persian army. That hit gave so much attrition, that the entire persian empire got shaken and had -20 loyalty afterwards. Single ships secured all coast regions so that no persian ships could get constructed.
A very long and intense war followed, but the quality of the Spartan troops was superior, the attrition of Persia never dropped to a lower level again and at the end of the day that won the war.
In another MP I fought as babylon together with an allied Lydia against Persia. Game went crazy, Lydia used the time of me fighting Persia and got crazy strong with the special regional units with mountain fighting boni plus archers. May be early game one of the strongest armies a nation can show up with and Lydia has the money to pay for them. When I tapped out of the fight and Persia accepted a lot of money for peace, Lydia started it's war. It started by invading me since the few units that remained under my command where fighting the egypt player and Lydia held off Persia with a few units positioned strategically in the mountains. If at that moment Persia and I wouldn't have formed a very uncommon alliance, Lydia would have definitely won the war in the east. (But don't cry for Lydia, he found strong allies in Sparta, leading invasions into my land, and Rome, just paying for everything).

Conclusion, you should really give MP a try. The community is great and it's lots of fun.

[Nukoolamukmuk]

Thanks jaersavo. Were all those nations human players? How many humans are involved in one game? Did you like the Babylon nation? I really like their chariots and hybrid bow/spear units plus the lovely orange clay color. I changed Persia to purple in my game to match my image of their color and gave forest green color to Arvernii instead.

A very long and intense war followed, but the quality of the Spartan troops was superior, the attrition of Persia never dropped to a lower level again and at the end of the day that won the war.

Who won this war? Does it mean Persia never had a penalty for attrition again and they won?

[PocusFR]

Fascinating AAR Jaersavo!

[jaersavo]

BeanCurd, at the end you always love the colour you are playing. MP games take some time and often you load the new turn with anxiety what your enemies have done. You see your empire shrink under the pressure. Then, finally a decisive blow giving you air to breath and you can open an offensive against your enemies and grow to a magnificence never reached before. After 100turns you have to like your own colour.

The war with Persia started 2 turns before this screenshot. Persia had a land force 3x bigger than Sparta's, but divided into 2 big armies. The trick was also, that till this moment my army was hidden in Greece/later already embarked ready to strike and Persia never saw my army and also didn't know that it can show up any moment in Lydia and jump directly onto it's army once they reached open terrain.
Due to their massive walls Argos and Athens are untouched. (I tested in SP to conquer those two and it took ages. So I decided to leave them alone) Persia actually used his wealth to buy them into a treaty, those treacherous Athenians.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2737918363

What I actually enjoyed when playing Sparta were the Helots(I played every nation only once. Just too many and all of them play different. But what i do, because I'm competitive and when I sign up for a match I play the chosen nation in Single player for like 15-40turns very quickly, trying different play styles. Can your starting army safely conquer a neutral region. How fast can Carthage land an army in Italy. Such questions :)
These Helots are insanely cheap units who don't even have a manpower upkeep. They are great for taking enemy regions aaaand for luring the enemy army out of it's position for a strike not knowing that the enemy will not face some poor slaves, but your main Spartan warriors.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2737920487

And as Babylon, no matter how hard you get pushed and how many regions you lose, one needs to wait till ones army is ready. Buy some time with fast units retaking lost regions or cheap units beefing up city defences, also works for fighting against Persia (also I lost the war against Persia badly)
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2737922589

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2737923961

As Rome (sadly I only have one screenshot because we had a bug at that time beeing, which got resolved pretty fast).
Just don't attack, let Persia come to you. Build a superior navy. Try to intercept and sink Persian armies or let them land. The Persian army won't be able to regain organisation and an unorganised army is an easy army to defeat. Burned earth is very useful, when you don't leave any food in regions you think that the persian player wants enter with his army. Your navy needs to stop the Persian army from fleeing, once it got defeated in greece or Italy. In the long run, I think, the economy will decide who wins. But you are not alone. Especially in MP you can form an alliance against the impending doom. A few allies like Carthage and a barbaric nations that allows you to expand northward without the need to protect your border are very valuable.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2463953142

Final conclusion. Definitely not invincible. But they will give any player facing them a very hard time. Fight them on your terms and find allies

[PocusFR]

You should publish this AAR here, it is very good and you show a remarkable strategic talent!
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=563

[jaersavo]

Originally posted by PocusFR:

You should publish this AAR here, it is very good and you show a remarkable strategic talent!
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=563

That is very kind of you, thank you. I'll have a look wether I took enough screenshots to tell a good story. That specific match is actually already one year old. But I enjoy your game, the atmosphere and community so much, that it is still vivid in my memory.

[ArcSine]

As Athens/Sparta, how do you get your rival to declare war on Persia? Do I have to improve relations until they ally me?

[PocusFR]

Rivalry ceases if allied, but that's difficult to achieve indeed.

[J]

Playing as Babylon in the Rise of Persia DLC is the same as playing the Senones in the base game. The focus by the developers on historical accuracy means the game is rigged, basically.

[PocusFR]

The game is not Chess indeed, some positions are harder than others.
Now, an AAR showing a player winning with Babylon:
https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=100710

[Pavane]

I've survived as Babylon by giving gifts to Persia every turn. In another game Lydia has the ability to build Galacian infantry that is better than anything else that Persia can field. Lydia wins every battle, but is still outnumbered by Persian armies.