Armored hoplites

[Hustler1]

Why do they exist in the main campaign? It doesn't make sense. They should be replaced by thorakitai or just phalanx pikemen. Macedon, for instance, DOESN'T use pikemen at all. Only armored and normal hoplites, it's wrong.

[Geffalrus]

What start date are you using? For the 310 start date, yes, Macedon/Antigonids/Ptolemies/Seleucids/Lysimachids should not be using much if any armored hoplites. The non-pike infantry they would have used at the time would have been mercenary hoplites and allied local citizen hoplites. Theoretically, major Greek states like Athens and Sparta in 310 BC would still have been using well-equipped hoplites aka armored hoplites in the game. Sparta and the Achaean League transitioned to pike armies eventually, while most other states shifted to Thureophoroi equipped soldiers/mercenaries, with the Aetolian League fielding the best of that lot. Bactria we don't know for sure what their infantry looked like. They would have had access to local Persian infantry and some Greek military settlers. Under Seleucid hegemony, the military settlers would have been trained in the traditional Macedonian fashion like the other military settlers in the rest of the Seleucid Empire. While interesting, they probably shouldn't have so many armored hoplites, and should - definitely - have more pikes available.

For the 500 BC start date, however, there's much debate on when the phalanx was officially invented. Many attribute it to Phillip II, which is definitely possible. So it would be fine for Macedon in 500 BC to not have any pike troops.

[Hustler1]

The 310 BC campaign, the vanilla one. Theoretically, major Greek states like Athens and Sparta in 310 BC SHOUDN´T have been using well-equipped hoplites aka armored hoplites in the game. In FOG2 they stop having armored hoplites by that time, only using "protected" hoplites. It seems bronze armor was already rare during the persian wars. ALSO for some reason, in this game, Macedon doesn´t field pike phalanx. They still use archaic hoplites . If you can change history in the game, fine. But at least they should use the right armored hoplite, that is the thorakita. Even most hoplites should be replaced by theuropois.

[Geffalrus]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Hustler1:

The 310 BC campaign, the vanilla one. Theoretically, major Greek states like Athens and Sparta in 310 BC SHOUDN´T have been using well-equipped hoplites aka armored hoplites in the game. In FOG2 they stop having armored hoplites by that time, only using "protected" hoplites. It seems bronze armor was already rare during the persian wars. ALSO for some reason, in this game, Macedon doesn´t field pike phalanx. They still use archaic hoplites . If you can change history in the game, fine. But at least they should use the right armored hoplite, that is the thorakita. Even most hoplites should be replaced by theuropois.

Yeah, I'd agree that they would be better off using a limited amount of Veteran Protected Hoplites instead of armored ones. Though I have seen other games argue that Athens was rich enough that their citizens might have had more armor in this time period than other states. Regardless, the shift to Thureophoroi and Thorakitai should be happening by 260BC.

It's weird that Macedon is not. Did they lose their barracks or something?

[欣怡 (Nathalie)]

Well to add to this a personal frustration. Some states in the early campaign in greece have Phalanx. I'm not expert but didn't Phillip II push phalanx as a major rival of hopolites, so prior to his birth they shouldn't either exist or be used on mass.

As to the topic, I think most factions do change to thureophoroi from what games i have played.

[Geffalrus]

Początkowo opublikowane przez OBESE MONKEYY(肥胖猴子):

Well to add to this a personal frustration. Some states in the early campaign in greece have Phalanx. I'm not expert but didn't Phillip II push phalanx as a major rival of hopolites, so prior to his birth they shouldn't either exist or be used on mass.

As to the topic, I think most factions do change to thureophoroi from what games i have played.

Really? I haven't played much of that one. I guess the theory could be that the formation could have been developed in other places. We're not 100% sure on exactly when it was formally adopted by the Macedonian military and whether it had a direct antecedent in a neighboring formation. I think Amyntas might be the king? Depends on how early you see it. If it's 500 BC then yeah, that's far too early.

How and when does the Thureophoroi change kick in? I've gotten 50 turns or so in on a few campaigns but haven't seen it.

[Hustler1]

Im talking about the campaign AFTER Alexander death. And Macedon, for some reason, uses armored hoplites instead of pike phalanx. And no, they did not lose the barracks or anything. They had an empire and huge armies. They just dont use pikes. And by this stage armored hoplites were not used. Even by the time of the greek civil war hoplites were becoming ligther.