Isn't Rome OP ? (and my fleet disappeared)

[HP LaserJet M110 Colour]

I'm in the following situation
7 Roman units = 104 power
28 Macedonian units = 176 power
From my experience, I can't win with such a difference if I attack (especially considering the Roman garrison would join)
I mean I get Roman troops are generally better, but this... I upgraded all my infantry and cavalry through decisions, my army comp is diverse and with mostly the best troops I have available

Also Rome pumps out hundred of units with no issue and rolls over me, while I was the first military power when Rome declared war on me, according to the ledger. And I get absolutely destroyed, Rome took all of my Adriatic coast and now is almost besieging my capital. I already raised emergency levies and recruited like crazy, I just can't beat the red blob.

It is worth noticing it is a campaign I started in August 2019, and I recently came back to it so patches may have messed up some things.

Any help would be welcome on how to deal with Rome xD

Edit : now there is worse, I lost my navy that was anchored in a region Rome captured. There was no naval battle, it just disappeared. No message in the log too.

[CHOO CHOO]

When I played my Roman campaign, I was under the impression that things were very easy and forgiving.

[cranky corvid]

How about some screenshots of your army compositions? The total combat power of a stack isn't really all that relevant for individual battles, it's all about the restrictions imposed by the terrain and the quality of the troops in the frontline and support positions. Some troop types are more optimal than others for a given terrain, and the game often isn't very smart about how it deploys troops, so going into a given battle with a "diverse" composition isn't necessarily the best either.

[HP LaserJet M110 Colour]

Originally posted by cranky corvid:

How about some screenshots of your army compositions? The total combat power of a stack isn't really all that relevant for individual battles, it's all about the restrictions imposed by the terrain and the quality of the troops in the frontline and support positions. Some troop types are more optimal than others for a given terrain, and the game often isn't very smart about how it deploys troops, so going into a given battle with a "diverse" composition isn't necessarily the best either.

Here you are : https://zupimages.net/viewer.php?id=20/11/oqkg.png (roman army)
https://zupimages.net/viewer.php?id=20/11/5hvt.png (my army)

What really scares me is how 7 Roman units can have a power over 100 in turn 113, that sounds crazy for such an early stage. And this was by far their smallest stack, the strongest were 40-60 units strong :o

[securitas04]

Pardon me, but let's get right to the point. Your stack is crap. The two regions in your pics have a frontage of 14. So in battle in either one of these you need 14 of those heavy phalanx melee units. These should be supported by an equal number of your best ranged units, like the light cavalry. The flanks should be 2 or 3 of your best heavy cavalry per side, so 4 to 6 heavy cavalry for the stack in that terrain. The Romans also have more experience than your average unit, so fix that with the right structures. Once you put together a strong stack of 34 experienced units you should do better.

I don't know what the rest of your strategy is, but we have an axiom in the real Army. "If you find yourself in a fair fight, then you did something terribly wrong." Never attack your enemy where he is strong. Pick a good defensive position for your forces and let him beat his army into dog food.

Why was your fleet in port? Keep it in a sea region next to a land region that can supply it. Do a sweep of enemy sea regions that gets your fleet back to a supplied sea region. Do this back and forth wiping out enemy units until you get sea control. A fleet in port is a sword inside its scabbard, i.e., an ornament. Good luck!

[HP LaserJet M110 Colour]

I'm terribly sorry but I don't get it. With a frontage of 14, I think the 7 roman units should be in great disadvantage against my far superior numbers, I would be able to flank them easily, so I wouldn't need more than 13 phalanx infantry (which is the amount I have). I also have way more skirmishers and they're provincial slingers with the "superior skirmishers" trait, I would easily win the skirmish phase and tire the Roman troops for the melee phase I think.

I didn't fight the battle as I knew I would lose, because against Romans I always lose if I don't have more than 2 times their power (and whatever the terrain is I swear)

Unit experience must definitely play a huge role but I have a hard time figuring how this could justify 7 units being that strong in comparison to my 28 units stack

It is true I have a limite understanding of how armies should be built, I read the manual several times but I find the explanations lacking, maybe I'm just dumb. Would you have a standard army comp that works in most cases ?

Also for the strategy side, I did not conquer Tarentium in this war but in a previous where I rekt the Romans, not so far ago. My stack here was sent to protect the region when Rome declared war on me while I was busy fighting Dacia and several revolts in the Balkans. This stack managed to repel an heavy assault but really I never intended to make it conquer Italy, I wouldn't dare, Roman garrisons are too strong. Fortunately Rome proposed me peace in exchange for me relinquishing an objective in Syracuse. Why ? I don't know, they were destroying me (warscore around -50 in their favour), but I accepted happily.

Regarding the fleet, I feared attrition would hurt me as it was harsh weather so I put my fleet back in harbour. I'm used to Total War or Paradox games where the fleet simply leaves the port if the region is captured, so I never expected it would be destroyed. Is it always like this in FOG Empires ? This is the first time I experiment it in around 50 hours (not much I agree but still)

Thanks for your help, I greatly appreciate it ;)

[cranky corvid]

Garrisons from fortified cities do not join with friendly field armies that come under attack, unless already mustered at the beginning of the turn because of a siege and told to exit the fortifications. In this particular matchup, that small Roman stack should be easily routed as it does not have cavalry for the flank positions or adequate ranged support and it's in a plains region, allowing your stack to take maximum advantage of its numerical superiority.

Originally posted by PH:

With a frontage of 14, I think the 7 roman units should be in great disadvantage against my far superior numbers, I would be able to flank them easily, so I wouldn't need more than 13 phalanx infantry (which is the amount I have).

You appear to have 2 Phalanx and 2 Heavy Infantry. The rest of your frontline infantry appear to be medium infantry, which are inferior in combat outside of mountains/forest/marsh. You should also always try to have support units at least equal to the terrain frontage - basic light cavalry or skirmishers are cheap and provide a lot of benefit relative to their cost.

[securitas04]

I was certainly not implying that you're dumb. So let's keep it friendly. :) Every time you do something, learn a lesson.

Stack combat power is an abstract and mere numbers don't always work. I took several regions as Sparta with just a handful of Phalanx units because they don't lose even to flanking and skirmish fire. If your side inflicts two or even one more unit destroyed than the enemy, then you win. This isn't TW or Paradox, so learn what works. Fight a battle one step at a time. Check all the screens. Experience has several levels and you can see what each does in the combat resolution menus on the right of the screen.

You want a number of your best melee types equal to the terrain frontage, supported by an equal number of ranged combat units with enough heavy cavalry to cover the flanks. You can check the terrain frontage by opening the region menu. At the top left are several icons for loyalty, decadence, defensiveness and frontage. The defensiveness icon tells you how many defenders the region has and their abstract combat strength. Always check this for any region you target. Know your foe.

Never play tag with an enemy, especially not Rome. Your goal is to take them out, not trade blows. Get allies. Check out their situation. You can use the diplomacy mechanism to see their government type, leader and civilization traits. Are they already weary from another war(s). Use the ledger to review what you can see of their military. Use the loyalty filter for the map to see how they are doing. If they have a lot of disloyal regions, that's to your advantage to know. Sun Tzu wrote that you should know your enemy as you know yourself. ;)

If you have a fleet, then use it to gain sea control. that's why it exists. If Rome holds regions on islands, then take them. Weaken Rome until you are ready to invade Italy and then go for their capital. Rome usually has a recurring problem with Usurpers causing civil wars. Take advantage of this. Good luck!

[HP LaserJet M110 Colour]

Originally posted by cranky corvid:

You appear to have 2 Phalanx and 2 Heavy Infantry. The rest of your frontline infantry appear to be medium infantry, which are inferior in combat outside of mountains/forest/marsh. You should also always try to have support units at least equal to the terrain frontage - basic light cavalry or skirmishers are cheap and provide a lot of benefit relative to their cost.

Ok thanks, I didn't really noticed a difference between medium and heavy infantry models when exporting the battles to FOG2 so I probably didn't even notice they weren't the same type. That explains some things though xD

[HP LaserJet M110 Colour]

Originally posted by securitas04:

I was certainly not implying that you're dumb. So let's keep it friendly. :) Every time you do something, learn a lesson.

Stack combat power is an abstract and mere numbers don't always work. I took several regions as Sparta with just a handful of Phalanx units because they don't lose even to flanking and skirmish fire. If your side inflicts two or even one more unit destroyed than the enemy, then you win. This isn't TW or Paradox, so learn what works. Fight a battle one step at a time. Check all the screens. Experience has several levels and you can see what each does in the combat resolution menus on the right of the screen.

You want a number of your best melee types equal to the terrain frontage, supported by an equal number of ranged combat units with enough heavy cavalry to cover the flanks. You can check the terrain frontage by opening the region menu. At the top left are several icons for loyalty, decadence, defensiveness and frontage. The defensiveness icon tells you how many defenders the region has and their abstract combat strength. Always check this for any region you target. Know your foe.

Never play tag with an enemy, especially not Rome. Your goal is to take them out, not trade blows. Get allies. Check out their situation. You can use the diplomacy mechanism to see their government type, leader and civilization traits. Are they already weary from another war(s). Use the ledger to review what you can see of their military. Use the loyalty filter for the map to see how they are doing. If they have a lot of disloyal regions, that's to your advantage to know. Sun Tzu wrote that you should know your enemy as you know yourself. ;)

If you have a fleet, then use it to gain sea control. that's why it exists. If Rome holds regions on islands, then take them. Weaken Rome until you are ready to invade Italy and then go for their capital. Rome usually has a recurring problem with Usurpers causing civil wars. Take advantage of this. Good luck!

Oh I didn’t meant that you were implying I’m dumb, sorry ;) It was an hypothesis considering I didn’t manage to understand the combat part in the manual. I'm trying to get into it but it's a bit too abstract for me at the moment I must say

I never attacked Rome, they did. Sure I thought about attacking them, as they’re bordering me and slowly catching up on me in the Legacy ranking. But I kept delaying it because of revolts and other wars, and Rome took advantage of the situation and caught me off guard. When I took Tarentum in the previous war, it was because it was an objective and I needed a progress token to avoid falling from glorious to old. It also matched the war score and was the only real opportunity I could get from the peace treaty.
They have no loyalty issue whatsoever, were at war with 3 Celtic factions and managed to win on all 4 fronts. That is another reason I think they’re kinda OP
As I stated previously I did check the ledger as soon as they declared war on me and I was supposed to have a better army than them : well it quickly proved to be different ;) The only ally I managed to make as Macedon was Sarmatia but I eventually broke the alliance as it was driving me into too many wars especially against bordering Dacia (and Dacian provinces don’t interest me as they’re not objectives, they are rather poor and have a different culture which is very problematic considering Macedon has the Hellenic trait).

Well I did have a mighty fleet until it disappeared because of a mechanic I had no clue about xD At least it will spare me some upkeep money I guess

One important thing is this is the very first campaign I started on the game in August, and I came back to it recently. In the meantime, I learnt a lot about province management and decadence, and I saw how much I screwed initially. I’m trying to fix the situation but I think it’s too late, I overextended too quickly initially and now I pay the price with constant revolts that delays the upgrading of my military buildings and hurts my manpower.
However, in all my games, Rome is incredibly powerful and even if it gets usurpers, I read somewhere from Pocus that AI automatically puts an end to civil war after few turns, so it never really slow it down enough in my opinion

Thanks for the advices, they will certainly help me in my next challenges ;)

[PocusFR]

It's never too late, and when you get back to being a top nation, you'll be very happy to have bitten the proverbial bullet and succeeded in your game.

Your army is a tad light on heavy units, true, but it has the number, I would not predict an easy win for the Roman and they might be beaten... If only you had more heavies and some good flankers...

If you have a 2-stars in offence, then it would help.

Also note that the enemy leader has the tactician ability, so an extra combat point to legions!

[securitas04]

The advice I gave for stack composition was for the FOGE abstract battle mechanic, not FOG 2. So I can't help you with that. In my England Medieval TW2 campaign, I fought 179 battles and won them all. That was enough tactical battles for me. You seem to have a good grasp of what you're doing.

I fought Rome in my Rhodus campaign. IMHO, the AI doesn't put together a strong army stack, so they were basically just a punching bag.

[HP LaserJet M110 Colour]

Ok thanks @securitas04 @PocusFR @Cranky_Corvid for the advices !

Also Pocus, could you confirm me the fleets anchored in a region captured by an enemy are automatically destroyed ? I don't really understand this mechanic if it's the case

[CHOO CHOO]

Happened to me, too.

[PocusFR]

They should be captured by your enemy, so destroyed on your side.

[HP LaserJet M110 Colour]

Originally posted by PocusFR:

They should be captured by your enemy, so destroyed on your side.

Oh OK, that kinda makes sense
Btw hyped for the new DLC !