Balance and game desgin analisys

[Phoenix]

As much as I love it, I have quite a few issues with this game. Some very odd balance/design choices.
For starters, as an Air Raider, most vehicles are utter trash. Your call-ins get better in every way (damage, capacity, speed, etc..) with pick-ups, vehicles do not. They only get cheaper, but that is pretty much worthless. Out of all the vehicles, only a few are usable, and even then only barely.
Tanks are the most useless, their firepower is laughable and they come with almost no ammo. You average tanks main gun needs 2-3 shots to take out ONE ant. You can MAYBE kill 10-15 ants before you run out of ammo. Maybe. Take the great Titan tank – by the time the AR gets it, every other class has weapons that GREATY out-DPS even it's (pathetic) main gun. There's no reason for anyone to ever mount your side guns, since they are even worse. You'll do a lot more damage on foot. It's only purpose is to serve a distraction as a big blob of HP, and even there most vehicles fail miserably for another reason – being a big, slow target means that everything hits you. The enemies that tanks should be the most resilient against (ants, spiders, wasps) are their greatest enemies, since those enemies have shotgun-like attacks that tanks can't dodge. Given that survival is basically designed around avoiding getting hit as all the classes (you are never supposed to get hit by all of the ants acid blobs) and balance is done around that notion, the vehicles fail. At the very least tanks should get a big damage reduction against acid-using enemies (and only them. Alien plasma guns should hurt) and damage/ammo upgrades.
Nixes are a hit-and miss. The most useful ones are the anti-air one and the mortar one. They are very slow and they turn even slower, meaning the ants can literally run around you in circles and attack you from the back, and you can't escape. Either a boost to mobility is in order or some of the enemies need to be slower. Why is it that only human big things are slow, like the aliens are not affected by mass and momentum?
Air vehicle controls are a nightmare for any kind of precision flying. Even trying to hit something with your fixed guns is a chore. Mostly because it is difficult to STAY on target.

The first 2 missions are a nightmare as Air Raider, since you need a full clip of your best limpet gun to kill ONE ant, and most turrets are underwhelming at best (not that you get them at start).
So many weapons are basically worthless because of how poor even their upgraded stats are. They either come with way too little ammo, no damage or insane limitations and drawbacks (powerdyne comes to mind).

Fencers are also oddly balanced – I honestly haven't found good use for many of the melee weapons, as they are far too weak/slow. Blasthole spears and jackhammer remain the bread and butter, the rest are way too situational or require charging to be of actual use (not good when you're in a swarm of ants). If you're stuck in melee, you are getting a facefull of ant acid, so there needs to be a big payoff for that risk – and that payoff should be your own lethality. Anything that doesn't 1-hit kill your average ant is a liability.
Shields are in my experience useless, avoiding damage beats getting damage. Not to mention the mobility and firepower loss. If shields COMPLETELY negated all damage instead of just reduced it, then maybe. And I say maybe because even if I could block 100% of damage that comes from the front, ants are fast and they will sorround me, and I can only block from the front. I need to drop the shield to move away fast, and while my shield is dropped I get a face full of acid. Especially on higher difficulties, ants are so fast and agressive that you are constantly under a waterfall of acid and getting any distance without maxed mobility is impossible.

[Corrodias]

Shields do have their uses... at least, tower shields. The rest don't seem very impressive with tower shields around. A shield with the knockback prevention can stand against aliens while you use your Jackhammer, which is nice.

My friends and I have seen good results from Nixes.

But the rest of this about vehicles feels painfully accurate. I've never had a good experience with tanks or helicopters. Why get into a tank? If there are no enemies nearby, I can do far more damage with my gunships and so on. If there are enemies nearby, the tank isn't really going to help, except maybe helping me survive a few more seconds until teammates rescue me. I guess maybe if I were fully dedicated to support and just brought a life vendor and guard post or something, the tank would let me do *some* damage from a decent distance.

Choppers are goofy fun but are not of much use against anything that can aim *up*, which means ants seem like their only good target, and ants are the least threatening enemy class.

You can get good results from some of the leftmost-column fencer weapons, though I haven't found this to be the case for many. Regular hammers, sometimes good against swarms. Vulcan hammers are supposed to be good, but I have a hard time imagining in what situation I'd want to use one except maybe a red ant swarm. Blades are usually (not always) too slow to be worth it. It takes several seconds to charge this thing, and then it doesn't even pierce? I could do more damage with a hand cannon, and that pierces. A few of the blades are quicker, though.

[Phoenix]

Nixes area hit-and-miss. As long as the enemy is distracted and you plink away at them from range they are good. But the second any vehicle is sorounded it goes down instantly. Most can't turn or move nearly fast enough. Even with jump jets you have no hope of getting any distance from an ant swarm. You can survive far longer even as an AirRaider just dodging than in a tank.

I find the laser gun heli very useful to use against anchors, but again, controls are the biggest enemy. It always wants to go back to fully horizontal so you can't keep your guns on target in any efficient way.

For melee weapons, they need to have a HUUUGE DPS to compensate for the fact that in order to use them you have to expose yourself to so much more danger. Blades and axes need a LOT more oomph. You need a short TTK (Time To Kill) because you are fighting swarms.

Against things like big aliens I use a Jackhammer+shotgun of fully upgraded flame revolver. Melts their weapon arm (and them) off before they can do any damage. I tried using shield, but my lethality and survivability always suffers when I try. The only way I'd find shield acceptable if if they reduced damage by 100%

[jojosmojojo]

Originally posted by Phoenix:

For starters, as an Air Raider, most vehicles are utter trash. Your call-ins get better in every way (damage, capacity, speed, etc..) with pick-ups, vehicles do not. They only get cheaper, but that is pretty much worthless.

No. Higher level vehicles are faster, with the exception of Barga.

Originally posted by Phoenix:

Tanks are the most useless, their firepower is laughable and they come with almost no ammo. You average tanks main gun needs 2-3 shots to take out ONE ant. You can MAYBE kill 10-15 ants before you run out of ammo. Maybe. Take the great Titan tank – by the time the AR gets it, every other class has weapons that GREATY out-DPS even it's (pathetic) main gun. There's no reason for anyone to ever mount your side guns, since they are even worse. You'll do a lot more damage on foot. It's only purpose is to serve a distraction as a big blob of HP, and even there most vehicles fail miserably for another reason – being a big, slow target means that everything hits you. The enemies that tanks should be the most resilient against (ants, spiders, wasps) are their greatest enemies, since those enemies have shotgun-like attacks that tanks can't dodge. Given that survival is basically designed around avoiding getting hit as all the classes (you are never supposed to get hit by all of the ants acid blobs) and balance is done around that notion, the vehicles fail. At the very least tanks should get a big damage reduction against acid-using enemies (and only them. Alien plasma guns should hurt) and damage/ammo upgrades.

If you want to use tanks defensively, the correct way is to go reverse and shoot, using the recoil as extra speed. That is the main difference between an APC and a MBT in this game. Tanks are used by Rangers as a switch sniping tool, while for Air Raiders a way to attack dropship undersides and as a mobility option. People don't use much MBTs and APCs in this game since other options such as helicopters, bipedal mechs and Depth Crawlers were all buffed 2-5x compared to 4.1 while ground vehicles were largely untouched, or were nerfed such as Epsilon.

Damage reduction already exists. Use a defense post. Also, if you want more armor, bunkers stick to vehicles while in previous games they just slid off. This mechanic alone makes helicopters overpowered when it was already strong.

Originally posted by Phoenix:

Nixes are a hit-and miss. The most useful ones are the anti-air one and the mortar one. They are very slow and they turn even slower, meaning the ants can literally run around you in circles and attack you from the back, and you can't escape. Either a boost to mobility is in order or some of the enemies need to be slower. Why is it that only human big things are slow, like the aliens are not affected by mass and momentum?

The most useful ones are close range ones, generally colored red with the exception of Nix Assault (colored gray) because they are fast. Jumping is standard movement for a Nix.

When sniping the underbelly of Mothership/dropship, a shoulder howitzer or rocket cannon Nix works well, as well as Nix Saber.

The aliens are organic animals while the Nix is a bipedal machine. ASIMO moves slow and clunky compared to a human child who can move quickly and flexibly.

Originally posted by Phoenix:

Air vehicle controls are a nightmare for any kind of precision flying. Even trying to hit something with your fixed guns is a chore. Mostly because it is difficult to STAY on target.

Overshooting the rotor speed and overcompensating inertia is a common problem many people experience with choppers. Slow hovering is recommended when attacking either with vehicle weapons, calling air strikes or dropping bombs. Surprisingly safe even not constantly moving.

Helicopter armor was buffed, and on top of that, we can stick bunkers onto them now so they are overpowered in this game. I suspect this is the reason we can't call vehicles at the start of a mission.

Originally posted by Phoenix:

The first 2 missions are a nightmare as Air Raider, since you need a full clip of your best limpet gun to kill ONE ant, and most turrets are underwhelming at best (not that you get them at start).
So many weapons are basically worthless because of how poor even their upgraded stats are. They either come with way too little ammo, no damage or insane limitations and drawbacks (powerdyne comes to mind).

While the limpet guns may feel weak, the potential DPS says otherwise. Ranger's PA-11 damages directly and kills enemies faster in real life conditions even though the Ranger too, is close to emptying the entire magazine. Limpet gun and sniper empties magazine faster, so with maximum efficiency they are better than Ranger since limpet guns are area-of-effect explosions.

Air Raiders start out with ZE-GUN with max capacity already unlocked. Also, most turrets are very important defensive weapons for AR. Even the worst turret, the Launcher series, can have a use while playing a solo underground mission.

The only truly worthless weapon is the Speedstar. All other weapons can have a use, albeit a niche one.

Powerdyne's only problem is that a stronger version only exists for the Nix, and not for the Fencer. It's a high velocity penetrating laser with pin-point accuracy and more than double the fire rate of a similar level 30mm Heavy Cannon, and does more damage. All this without recoil. Making it able to reload will make this weapon overpowered. The dual Powerdyne's DPS is better than a lot of mid-level Ranger weapons even though the Powerdyne is a level 2 weapon.

Originally posted by Phoenix:

Fencers are also oddly balanced – I honestly haven't found good use for many of the melee weapons, as they are far too weak/slow. Blasthole spears and jackhammer remain the bread and butter, the rest are way too situational or require charging to be of actual use (not good when you're in a swarm of ants). If you're stuck in melee, you are getting a facefull of ant acid, so there needs to be a big payoff for that risk – and that payoff should be your own lethality. Anything that doesn't 1-hit kill your average ant is a liability.
Shields are in my experience useless, avoiding damage beats getting damage. Not to mention the mobility and firepower loss. If shields COMPLETELY negated all damage instead of just reduced it, then maybe. And I say maybe because even if I could block 100% of damage that comes from the front, ants are fast and they will sorround me, and I can only block from the front. I need to drop the shield to move away fast, and while my shield is dropped I get a face full of acid. Especially on higher difficulties, ants are so fast and agressive that you are constantly under a waterfall of acid and getting any distance without maxed mobility is impossible.

Hammers get damage reduction from all degrees during the attack animation. Vibro Hammers , Rollers and Hakens are good against green ants. Vulcan Hammers are good against red ants. All prevent biting attacks during the attack animation.

Blade beams penetrate enemies and Shield Bearer shields. They also don't cause friendly fire. Force Blades and Axes are good against flying enemies like wasps and tadpoles. Force blades have a higher DPS when charging, but the Axes have higher DPS not charging attacks.
Dynamo Blade series can be used as an accurate, mobile sniper instead of becoming a stationary target while using Heavy Cannons. With Blades, you can destroy anchors guarded by Shield Bearers from far away.

No, anything that doesn't 1-hit stun a target enemy is potentially a liability. Not 1-hit kill. Otherwise shotguns and Jackhammers won't be the bread and butter.

Shields can completely negate damage. Look for a support item called Barricade System X.

A shield's damage reduction and a support item damage reduction stacks, so if I take a Great Shield that negates 90% damage and a Deflect Cell AX that negates 40% and take 100 damage, the Fencer will take 6 damage.

Staying mobile even with a shield is standard. A Fencer can still dash with a melee weapon. Also, Fencers can attack with spears with a shield up, and dash with a shield up. Keeping the shield up is also standard. The shield blocks according to where the camera is facing, and not the Fencer. Back dashing while facing the enemy works, even though the Fencer might be facing toward to the screen.

Tower shields have a wide degree of blocking, and Shield Protection Armor adds even more degrees to blocking. A Great Shield blocks 170 degrees without buffs, and with the Shield Protection Armor Y, it's 230 degrees. Equipping Barricade System X on top of that makes a Fencer only take damage from behind. This is why so many low AP Fencers use shields. A 250 AP Fencer can solo the last mission easily with a shield on Inferno because of this.

It's standard to buff shields if you are serious about using shields. Same story with other weapons. I don't see a serious Flame Revolver user not using a recoil reduction item. If you want to use a particular setup, you need to build toward it.

[MundM]

Raider really was annoying to start with. Pretty much every cave like level is annoying as raider.
I find myself only using a handfull of weapons in each classes anyway, I feel like 80% of the equipment just serves to have quanitity, rather then quality weapons.

[Zeddy]

This is a lot of points, most of them wrong.

All vehicles have use cases. I could list them all but I'll save it for the guide I'm writing. Instead, I ask that you pick one: The absolute worst air raider vehicle with no redeeming qualities you can't possibly imagine a use for, and I'll tell you how I used it to kick butt.

I notice you mention DPS. Air Raider has four equipment slots, and the other three do not simply disappear just because you've called your vehicle in. Supplement your vehicle with strikes that soften up the incoming horde, posts that buff or heal your vehicle, turrets that push enemies back and assist with kiting. There's no way one vehicle is going to outdo the performance of three air raider weapons, but there's no reason it should need to. Air Raider is an intermediate class for advanced players, you'll just have to become one.

You start with turrets on your air raider. It's one of the tools you're given in the tutorial mission. Air raider starts with an absurd amount of tools, given how little everyone else gets. You say 2 missions. Are you struggling with the tutorial mission where you can't die and don't have to kill anything other than a few practice targets? The second online mission is above ground.

Most fencer "melee" weapons have a range of around 80-250m. That's about on par with good damage range of ranger shotguns and assault rifles, nobody says you have to be in the middle of ants to use most of them. Pretty much just vibro roller, which super kills ants in one attack. You should almost always be using full charge attacks with cc strikers. There are some where you shouldn't. Again, feel free to mention one in particular and I'll tell you about that time I kicked butt with it.

Shields are more than fine. With 450 HP and a shield boosting mod I tanked all the frogs on mission 15, Inferno difficulty. You do need to equip mods for using them heavily, fencer is like that in general. Use mods to supplement your equipment. If you want to be a jack of all trades, equipping shields but only dash boost mods, for instance, be prepared for them only being okay.

Blades pierce. They even pierce shieldbearers.

[Ashlem]

I've found the green nixes to be okay turret weapons if you have to turtle/defend an area. But as mobile units, at least the lower level ones, really suck because of how horribly slow they are, even if you try jumping with them. Good if you're parked underneath a non-moving carrier, or one that's flying around the edge of the map in a circle where you can wait for it to go under you. Bad if you get zerg rushed by the swarm, especially on higher difficulities where

I've been finding that the naegling missile launcher is more practical most of the time because after you fire at a swarm, you can exit the vehicle, and it will continue to launch its missiles until its fired on all the targets. This way you can slightly bump your DPS against swarms by targeting, shooting, then jumping out and calling more airstrikes down. If you have 2 of them nearby you can also fire them in quick succession if you park one slightly behind the other so you can jump back and forth quickly between them.

That said, I find the mortar column to be largely useless, mostly because the delay between when you throw it and when it hits, the fact that you have to throw a smoke grenade to target, and that it also costs credits on top of that.

[jojosmojojo]

Originally posted by Ashlem:

I've been finding that the naegling missile launcher is more practical most of the time because after you fire at a swarm, you can exit the vehicle, and it will continue to launch its missiles until its fired on all the targets. This way you can slightly bump your DPS against swarms by targeting, shooting, then jumping out and calling more airstrikes down. If you have 2 of them nearby you can also fire them in quick succession if you park one slightly behind the other so you can jump back and forth quickly between them.

I want to also add that getting out of the Naegling after it shoots missiles will make the missiles pass through Shield Bearers.

Originally posted by Ashlem:

That said, I find the mortar column to be largely useless, mostly because the delay between when you throw it and when it hits, the fact that you have to throw a smoke grenade to target, and that it also costs credits on top of that.

Air Raider mortars are difficult to use, and if it's used against active enemies it will probably kill team mates than enemies online.

I can't find a use for howitzers, but a cannon is useful because of the damage. Drop the smoke grenade from a helicopter against a passive boss or an anchor, and it will most likely kill it. You have time to fly away from the danger zone, since mortars are slow to start firing.

[Muu]

Tfw people talk about the game on a technical basis when they havent mastered the game at all.

[Kaldrak]

APC's are critical for surviving on the higher difficulties, as they are generally the fastest ground vehicle you can get into. So, run till you're far away, call in carpet bombs behind you, then get back in and run again. Toss out another vehicle over to the side where you won't bomb while you circle the map. Mix and repeat. Works well if you don't have drones buzzing you or aliens killing you from the sides.

The higher level tanks are also quite fast and you can kite whole mobs of spiders while slowly killing them if you want, while also being durable enough to handle a few stray hits you can't avoid while running.

The flamethrower Nixes work decently to hold a position if you have support, like friendly AI's or turrets or other players. Also they're generally the fastest of the series, so you can bug out if you get overrun while toasting things that chase you.

The missile Nixes are useful at long range if you have someone else kite the enemies, plus if something comes up on you, you can murder it with the autocannons. The Naeglings work similarly, minus the ability to defend yourself if something gets close.

In underground maps, everything is all about positioning. Find the right tunnel, bring the right turrets, always remember to toss out extra depth crawlers behind you so you can get into them if yours gets damaged or runs out of ammo while you kill things.

Oh, and depth crawlers are quite usable on the surface with the increased durability bonus, now. They're worth it sometimes to get on top of things for a better view for calling in air strikes/sat strikes/gunship attacks.

I've found that the helicopters work decently against the large flying drones, as they are too big and unwieldy enough to get out of the way of your attacks. Also the helos work alright if the ground monsters are chasing something else.

Honestly, man. I loved the vehicles in 4.1, so I've been thoroughly exploring all of the possibilities with them in 5. They won't carry you through a mission quite like they used to in the previous game, but they can make the difference between victory and defeat if you use them correctly.

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by jojosmojojo:

Originally posted by Phoenix:

If you want to use tanks defensively, the correct way is to go reverse and shoot, using the recoil as extra speed. That is the main difference between an APC and a MBT in this game. Tanks are used by Rangers as a switch sniping tool, while for Air Raiders a way to attack dropship undersides and as a mobility option. People don't use much MBTs and APCs in this game since other options such as helicopters, bipedal mechs and Depth Crawlers were all buffed 2-5x compared to 4.1 while ground vehicles were largely untouched, or were nerfed such as Epsilon.

Damage reduction already exists. Use a defense post. Also, if you want more armor, bunkers stick to vehicles while in previous games they just slid off. This mechanic alone makes helicopters overpowered when it was already strong.

If you're telling me to use defense posts and bunkers to make vehicles viable, you are basically admitting that they are weak. A good vehicle doesn't need extra equipment.
And yes, we all agree tanks are trash.

The most useful ones are close range ones, generally colored red with the exception of Nix Assault (colored gray) because they are fast. Jumping is standard movement for a Nix.

When sniping the underbelly of Mothership/dropship, a shoulder howitzer or rocket cannon Nix works well, as well as Nix Saber.

The aliens are organic animals while the Nix is a bipedal machine. ASIMO moves slow and clunky compared to a human child who can move quickly and flexibly.

I'd rather keep the ants away. Acid melts even the Barga obscenely quick. Seriously, if something it supposed to be acid-resistant, MAKE IT ACID RESISTANT

Also, future tech and doesn't matter that they are organic. Momentum doesn't work differently on machines and living beings.

Overshooting the rotor speed and overcompensating inertia is a common problem many people experience with choppers. Slow hovering is recommended when attacking either with vehicle weapons, calling air strikes or dropping bombs. Surprisingly safe even not constantly moving.

No, the problem is aiming up/down, you can't KEEP your reticle steady, the controls are jumpy and the vehicle want to go back up.

While the limpet guns may feel weak, the potential DPS says otherwise. Ranger's PA-11 damages directly and kills enemies faster in real life conditions even though the Ranger too, is close to emptying the entire magazine. Limpet gun and sniper empties magazine faster, so with maximum efficiency they are better than Ranger since limpet guns are area-of-effect explosions.

Air Raiders start out with ZE-GUN with max capacity already unlocked. Also, most turrets are very important defensive weapons for AR. Even the worst turret, the Launcher series, can have a use while playing a solo underground mission.

My experience says otherwise.
Playing the first two missions with any other class was a breeze.
Playing with the Air Raider was taxing, with all NPCs dead in every fight and me running back and slowly whittling down ants one by one.

Powerdyne's only problem is that a stronger version only exists for the Nix, and not for the Fencer. It's a high velocity penetrating laser with pin-point accuracy and more than double the fire rate of a similar level 30mm Heavy Cannon, and does more damage. All this without recoil. Making it able to reload will make this weapon overpowered. The dual Powerdyne's DPS is better than a lot of mid-level Ranger weapons even though the Powerdyne is a level 2 weapon.

It's still trash, since you can't turn it off (unless you weapon switch) and the small ammo pool.
You can have it reload like air raides or give it a LONG reload time

Hammers get damage reduction from all degrees during the attack animation.

I'd rather not get any damage to begin with.

Blade beams penetrate enemies and Shield Bearer shields. They also don't cause friendly fire. Force Blades and Axes are good against flying enemies like wasps and tadpoles. Force blades have a higher DPS when charging, but the Axes have higher DPS not charging attacks.
Dynamo Blade series can be used as an accurate, mobile sniper instead of becoming a stationary target while using Heavy Cannons. With Blades, you can destroy anchors guarded by Shield Bearers from far away.

The blade damage is pathetic and so is their rate of fire.

Staying mobile even with a shield is standard. A Fencer can still dash with a melee weapon.

A dash alone is pathetic. You can't get any real distance and will still get bukaked by the ants.

Tower shields have a wide degree of blocking, and Shield Protection Armor adds even more degrees to blocking. A Great Shield blocks 170 degrees without buffs, and with the Shield Protection Armor Y, it's 230 degrees. Equipping Barricade System X on top of that makes a Fencer only take damage from behind. This is why so many low AP Fencers use shields. A 250 AP Fencer can solo the last mission easily with a shield on Inferno because of this.

So it takes max level upgrades and support items for it to be viable? Ok.
Not exactly the greatest endorsment.

It's standard to buff shields if you are serious about using shields. Same story with other weapons. I don't see a serious Flame Revolver user not using a recoil reduction item. If you want to use a particular setup, you need to build toward it.

I can use many of weapons without it (Galic Gun, mortar, gattlings, etc..). Flame revolver is the only one that really benefits greatly from recoil reduction.

[Zeddy]

Originally posted by Phoenix:

If you're telling me to use defense posts and bunkers to make vehicles viable, you are basically admitting that they are weak. A good vehicle doesn't need extra equipment.
And yes, we all agree tanks are trash.

You want vehicles to win missions for you without any need for using any of your three weapons? I'm glad you're not a game designer.

Originally posted by Phoenix:

My experience says otherwise.
Playing the first two missions with any other class was a breeze.
Playing with the Air Raider was taxing, with all NPCs dead in every fight and me running back and slowly whittling down ants one by one.

Well, here's my experience starting fresh on inferno:

With Ranger I struggled hard, eventually using the tactic you fell back to with air raider. Same with wing diver. Fencer I somehow made it with good hand cannon usage.
http://www.twitch.tv/zeddidragon/v/468230723
http://www.twitch.tv/zeddidragon/v/469063204
http://www.twitch.tv/zeddidragon/v/468230722

Air Raider? I barely had to play the game, turrets won the stage for me.
http://www.twitch.tv/zeddidragon/v/468869167

My run has consistently been this.
Ranger: A complete struggle every time
Wing Diver and Fencer: Takes turns being the easiest class for a mission, sometimes they'll be up against something really hard that Ranger takes the lead on
Air Raider: Consistently the easiest (sometimes second easiest) class to do anything with. Biggest issue is I keep accidentally winning too hard and losing out on boxes. Even underground. Especially underground.

Originally posted by Phoenix:

So it takes max level upgrades and support items for it to be viable? Ok.
Not exactly the greatest endorsment.

Max upgrades aren't needed to make shields "viable", they're viable completely on their own. What max upgrades do is turn your practically immortal. Just any old shield booster will let you use a tower shield to fight 15 cosmonauts at once.
http://www.twitch.tv/zeddidragon/v/474763443

Originally posted by Phoenix:

I can use many of weapons without it (Galic Gun, mortar, gattlings, etc..). Flame revolver is the only one that canreally benefits greatly from recoil reduction.

I'm pretty impressed if you can hold down two Hand Cannons for full rate of fire without missing any shots without a recoil mod. But yeah, I mostly pick arm exo instead for better aim. Going with a dash booster and a jump booster is a waste most of the time when you can do just as fine with a multi booster. The other mod slot I usually spend on an exo, shield booster or muzzle, depending on my second set.

[Vℓα∂y]

Originally posted by Phoenix:

It's still trash, since you can't turn it off (unless you weapon switch) and the small ammo pool.
You can have it reload like air raides or give it a LONG reload time

Are you talking about the amazing disrupters when he was talking about Powerdyne? Powerdyne is pretty solid in offline, these things are very good for quickly taking out priority targets if your looking to clear targets right away from any distance. Disrupters carry solid enough damage to kill things like this even in online. If they were reload-able they'd be the only thing you'd ever use.

Originally posted by Phoenix:

I'd rather not get any damage to begin with.

Are you sure you can beat the entire game without ever taking any damage? I mean I've seen some fencers moving around like crazy and they still get hit you know it just happens every now and then due to so much going on in certain maps.

Originally posted by Phoenix:

The blade damage is pathetic and so is their rate of fire.

All of the fencers melee weapons is designed for crowd control and not single target damage, the only one that can kinda falls into that is vulcan but vulcan too is meant to be hitting multiple things. They don't need high RoF when one single blow stuns any enemy except bosses.
Hammers - Meant for ground crowd control,

Vulcan- High damage for single and lots for multi

Vibro Hammer Crowd Control only, very basic.

Haken- Crowd control and provides mobility, because of the wide spread on this one, I find it more suitable for teamplay especially since its weak, you get a bunch of enemies following you, you spam haken, haken like most CC strikers has a special property of slowing down enemies like most of melee weapons and your teammates can easily kill what's behind u as you stunlocking them, only recommend for ants and spiders, its fine for defense will help keep you safe. If your looking to kill everything yourself wouldn't recommend.

Force Blade - Crowd Control on both ground and aerial but more suited for aerial, is very good at hitting multiple enemies due to wide hitbox of the projectile.

Dynamo Blade - Mobile Long range sniper with max charge hit, can be used to safetly attack any foe from any distance.

Force Axe - Basically a faster model of Force Blade that leads to more damage and smaller hitbox, this blade can also be used for mobility like haken, is most complex melee weapon due to the charge speed. Works for a wide variety of situations.

All melee weapons are meant to be dual wielded for finest results according to developer. That still holds true in EDF5, although you can mix match things like dyna and vulcan with Dash jump setups for interesting hybrid results. Because they are suitable for dual wielding you can do other type of set loadouts like exoskeletons or recoil mods and still be fine.

Originally posted by Phoenix:

A dash alone is pathetic. You can't get any real distance and will still get bukaked by the ants.

Are you attacking as your dashing? I know dash cancels is nerfed/gone, but if your attacking, your attacks should be slowing the enemies down and you'll be doing a slide that gives you an extra oompth to that dash its nothing major but helps. and honestly Ants are one of slowest things in the game unless we talking green ants. If you struggling with generic ants your doing something really wrong.

Originally posted by Phoenix:

So it takes max level upgrades and support items for it to be viable? Ok.
Not exactly the greatest endorsment.

That only really could be applied to blasthole and its slow swing speed, or dispersal/Dexter with K accuracy, those weapons aren't worth a damn until upgraded or you get dash cell,add jumps, multi boosters. They need a lot to be good but when there good there really best thing in the game.

Originally posted by Phoenix:

I can use many of weapons without it (Galic Gun, mortar, gattlings, etc..). Flame revolver is the only one that really benefits greatly from recoil reduction.

I can use force axes without any support items, can you use anything like blasthole to win a stage like this in online? I mean my weapons are suppose to be so weak right when they don't kill in one hit, so surely blasthole with its big damage can beat this level easily without support! I mean its just so awful, I had to hit the normal 2x/silvers like 30 times, so wasn't I in a huge liability 30 times over? what happen why did I live?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J916VdrGkN8

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by Zeddy:

Originally posted by Phoenix:

You want vehicles to win missions for you without any need for using any of your three weapons? I'm glad you're not a game designer.

No, I want vehicles to be worth brining out to the battlefield. For tanks to actually FEEL like tanks. For the main tank gun to actually do more damage than a rifle.

[Zeddy]

Tank cannon kills most enemies in one shot if you're using a level appropriate one. They're worth bringing out on the battlefield, but most of the time you can not rely on them exclusively. A set of turrets on top to assist kiting is my preferred supplement, then I still have two slots left for airstrikes.

It sounds like you wanna play Iron Rain where the highest difficulty can be beaten with a lot of grinding, patience and skill or... just call a tank and win. The tank can withstand damage from multiple enemies for an extended period of time and is equipped with multiple overpowered guns to deal with any situation.

[Kaldrak]

Originally posted by Phoenix:

No, I want vehicles to be worth brining out to the battlefield. For tanks to actually FEEL like tanks. For the main tank gun to actually do more damage than a rifle.

Higher level Nixes can withstand sustained gunfights with multiple frogs/aliens, even on hardest difficulty.

Higher level tanks are quite fast, and will take out groups of insects and weaker monsters with one tank shot, but the frogs and aliens will require multiple hits.

You just haven't unlocked decent enough gear yet.