Underrated

[Josh Has Worms]

I feel like this game is getting more hate than it deserves. I will start by saying I was not waiting five years for it, so I don't have years and years of expectations built up, but I had a lot of fun with this one. It felt a lot like Quake, unsurprisingly, and I love Quake. There was more of an emphasis on ammo management in this game, which was kind of a pain in episode 1 but got better as the game went on.

I really enjoyed most of the level design in Wrath. The levels were enormous, and it could be a bit of a slog at times, but the slower combat and variety of weapons and items felt good. Encounters felt like a puzzle to be solved with powerful but limited resources. The aforementioned ammo management led me to always keep an eye on which weapons I was using, how much ammo I had in them, and where pickups were that I previously passed. Knowing when to save an ammo pickup for later was key, and the level design made looping back common enough for this not to be an issue.

I saw some people complaining about enemies spawning behind them or something and I guess I played a different game than those people. I rarely felt that enemy placement or teleporting in was cheap or unfair. The sounds clearly telegraph the spawns, which take a second to be able to attack you. The enemies that are designed to surprise you clearly telegraph their appearance with sound. For example, Widows hiding behind corners. You hear their scream, you press S to move back. It's not hard. They rarely managed to hit me. I play with surround sound, so I guess that helped clue me in when an enemy was behind me, too.

Enemies could have had a bit more variety, especially given the length of the game and the size of the levels. Other than that, I have few complaints. It plays and performs well. It really made me feel the same kind of enjoyment the original Quake brought me. It's definitely not my favorite game ever, but I thought Wrath was very solid.

[Bankai9212]

Why do people hate whenever critique is mentioned if anything the game is mid more then anything. While the maps are impressive some are way too large which effects overall pacing.

[Outlander]

Yeah it's great. For me it's the perfect mix of exploration and combat. I love the look and feel of some of the maps and like trying to find all the secrets.

The maps don't seem very large to me, but I'm used to the Quake custom mods and maps so this kind of gameplay was nothing new to me.

[SCUMM]

Originally posted by sandwichfren:

The maps don't seem very large to me, but I'm used to the Quake custom mods and maps so this kind of gameplay was nothing new to me.

I think this is the core of Wrath's strength and weakness. It is a commercial game for people who love playing those huge custom maps and mods and for those folks it is one of the best things you can play. For everyone else it is an overlong and samey pain in the rear.

[Outlander]

Originally posted by SCUMM:

Originally posted by sandwichfren:

The maps don't seem very large to me, but I'm used to the Quake custom mods and maps so this kind of gameplay was nothing new to me.

I think this is the core of Wrath's strength and weakness. It is a commercial game for people who love playing those huge custom maps and mods and for those folks it is one of the best things you can play. For everyone else it is an overlong and samey pain in the rear.

Yeah I can definitely see that. When I got to The Priory and that cool looking building, with the mix of indoor and outdoor areas to explore I loved it. I didn't want to move on to the second episode after getting the 5 relics because I loved those maps so much lol.

[SCUMM]

Originally posted by sandwichfren:

Originally posted by SCUMM:

I think this is the core of Wrath's strength and weakness. It is a commercial game for people who love playing those huge custom maps and mods and for those folks it is one of the best things you can play. For everyone else it is an overlong and samey pain in the rear.

Yeah I can definitely see that. When I got to The Priory and that cool looking building, with the mix of indoor and outdoor areas to explore I loved it. I didn't want to move on to the second episode after getting the 5 relics because I loved those maps so much lol.

The Priory is one of my favourite levels in an FPS, new or old*. I was so struck by it when I first played it I spent a while excitedly talking with a couple of people trying to convince them to play Wrath. They told me it was one of the most boring, over long slogs they had seen in a game, which confused me.

Wrath is less about shooting dudes and more about the labyrinth, and I guess that is the major divide with modern boomshoot fans: Do you like the heavy metal killing or the exploration more?

*Well, at least it was until they rebalanced the ammo and damage levels, but that is another issue.

[chedap]

I think the complaints about enemies getting spawned in aren't just about ambushes. It's also about the broader sense of game world cohesion. At map start there are zero enemies "existing", so you won't be running into patrols, or seeing them from a distance, or witnessing infighting. Maybe some of this is technically possible even with the spawn-in system, but it's not solely an encounter design problem - the idle sounds on some enemies are so loud that you'd hear them through the walls from 50 meters away. Try and imagine 500 of those at once.

On to the enemies: Wrath doesn't really have a good melee enemy that complements the ranged dudes, nor does it have a ranged enemy that requires more than some slight sidestepping. The best it has is the Wretches spamming plasma in turret mode. These are very versatile and have appropriate health pool, but they can't carry 15 hours of combat alone.

Wrath also lacks effective explosives, and its shotgun alone often isn't enough, which puts the player at a longer, safer, boring-er range most of the time. Having a "flak cannon" instead of a "bio rifle" would have made a huge difference.

Lastly, the levels. I liked them a lot, and found the new ones an improvement over the demo episode across the board: pacing, variety, balance, everything. In terms of level design, I think the main thing that detracts from the experience is inventory carry-over.

Now, I get why devs don't do pistol-start - casual players seem quite stubborn when it comes to this, just as with save limits. But why not reset the arsenal between episodes? Doom, Duke and Quake all did resets, but Wrath and Ion Fury, despite having twice the length, opt for never mixing things up after the first couple hours. You could've had a melee-only powerup-heavy map, a goop-only map, a beam-only map, some kinda survival puzzle map - all sorts of things. I just seriously don't get it.

Also, while I didn't mind it, it's not surprising to me that some people would find the first episode bland and drop the game. Really, you'd have to struggle to come up with a blander theme. Grey stone walls and... some trees... I guess? Hardly something that would hook someone who isn't already interested.

Lastly-lastly, the tech. With Q1 BSP ditched, I would have expected for crouching to be useful outside of platforming, and for there to be tiny critters and huge giants. But I think all enemies are pretty much human-or-shambler sized? Was it really worth the lack of lightstyles? Stairs are massively improved over Q1, but I'm not sure if that's on the map format or on the engine.

...Maybe this wasn't the best thread to dump my thoughts on the game, but whatever. Overall, I also feel out of sync with some of the criticisms I'm seeing, especially when Turbo Overkill gets brought up as superior to anything in any respect. You wanna talk underwhelming weapons, flat-line combat and copy-paste levels, that game's the prime example. But I'm just rambling now.

[Bankai9212]

Originally posted by SCUMM:

Originally posted by sandwichfren:

Yeah I can definitely see that. When I got to The Priory and that cool looking building, with the mix of indoor and outdoor areas to explore I loved it. I didn't want to move on to the second episode after getting the 5 relics because I loved those maps so much lol.

The Priory is one of my favourite levels in an FPS, new or old*. I was so struck by it when I first played it I spent a while excitedly talking with a couple of people trying to convince them to play Wrath. They told me it was one of the most boring, over long slogs they had seen in a game, which confused me.

Wrath is less about shooting dudes and more about the labyrinth, and I guess that is the major divide with modern boomshoot fans: Do you like the heavy metal killing or the exploration more?

*Well, at least it was until they rebalanced the ammo and damage levels, but that is another issue.

except that isn't how the game is, most of the time you are killing enemies to move forward, short of secret hunting there's little reason to go back into huge maps like shadow pantheon. The issue is that it effects the flow and pacing of the game that is mostly shooting the same 9 enemies over and over.

[Bankai9212]

Turbo overkill short of the last level has great level and enemy variety, Least a level won't last as long as 90 minutes and combat is fun and has good punchy impact.

[chedap]

Originally posted by Bankai9212:

Turbo overkill short of the last level has great level and enemy variety, Least a level won't last as long as 90 minutes and combat is fun and has good punchy impact.

I found it completely brainless, with the slide dominating everything. Had flashbacks to Necrovision with how little variety encounter-to-encounter it had. But anyway, that's off-topic, forget I even brought it up.

[Bankai9212]

I mean wrath isn't any better you fight the same 9 enemies especially the electric guys it becomes a chore. But I agree not relevant to this game.

[SCUMM]

Originally posted by Bankai9212:

except that isn't how the game is, most of the time you are killing enemies to move forward, short of secret hunting there's little reason to go back into huge maps like shadow pantheon. The issue is that it effects the flow and pacing of the game that is mostly shooting the same 9 enemies over and over.

See above

Originally posted by SCUMM:

I think this is the core of Wrath's strength and weakness. It is a commercial game for people who love playing those huge custom maps and mods and for those folks it is one of the best things you can play. For everyone else it is an overlong and samey pain in the rear.

I'm noting that the concept of "Boomershooters" is being divided between the fans of things like Turbo Overkill, Doom Eternal and Ultrakill and things that feel more like Doom or Quake mods.
Wrath is very much a high profile Quake mod with a premium attached to it, for better or worse.

[Outlander]

Originally posted by Bankai9212:

I mean wrath isn't any better you fight the same 9 enemies especially the electric guys it becomes a chore. But I agree not relevant to this game.

It's not like there's a ton of enemies in base Quake 1 either so I don't see that as a criticism. It's basically just grenade ogres, death knights, scrags, vores and shamblers. The key is how those encounters can be setup using map design for an interesting fight. And how modders can create new enemies in stuff like Alkaline, AD and Dwell.

I think there's a ton of potential in Wrath for great mods and custom maps.

[Bankai9212]

Originally posted by SCUMM:

Originally posted by Bankai9212:

except that isn't how the game is, most of the time you are killing enemies to move forward, short of secret hunting there's little reason to go back into huge maps like shadow pantheon. The issue is that it effects the flow and pacing of the game that is mostly shooting the same 9 enemies over and over.

See above

Originally posted by SCUMM:

I think this is the core of Wrath's strength and weakness. It is a commercial game for people who love playing those huge custom maps and mods and for those folks it is one of the best things you can play. For everyone else it is an overlong and samey pain in the rear.

I'm noting that the concept of "Boomershooters" is being divided between the fans of things like Turbo Overkill, Doom Eternal and Ultrakill and things that feel more like Doom or Quake mods.
Wrath is very much a high profile Quake mod with a premium attached to it, for better or worse.

Why, I'm playing the game its what the gameplay loop is. Just because someone is used to overly large maps doesn't remove or change the critique of some levels being to big and long that it can effect overall pacing. Amid evil only has 6 weapons with each level in an realm being memorable because they aren't long and are unique to that realm like enemy types. Just because a level is large doesn't make it fun to play though even if it is impressive.

[Bankai9212]

Originally posted by sandwichfren:

Originally posted by Bankai9212:

I mean wrath isn't any better you fight the same 9 enemies especially the electric guys it becomes a chore. But I agree not relevant to this game.

It's not like there's a ton of enemies in base Quake 1 either so I don't see that as a criticism. It's basically just grenade ogres, death knights, scrags, vores and shamblers. The key is how those encounters can be setup using map design for an interesting fight. And how modders can create new enemies in stuff like Alkaline, AD and Dwell.

I think there's a ton of potential in Wrath for great mods and custom maps.

Quake 1 isn't 15 hours long to finish, plus each difficulty remixes enemy encounters.

[Outlander]

Originally posted by Bankai9212:

15 hours

I've been playing Quake 1 content for 27 years.