About online

[Kubold]

Hellish Quart has a local 2-player functionality and doesn't have an online mode built in. This is marked in the game description. I addressed the requests for adding a native online mode in various posts and videos, and explained why I can't promise it can be done, I'll sum it up here:

- I have a particular set of skills: 3D animation, mocap acting, scripting gameplay, sword fighting. Those are a rare combo that allowed me to make a quite realistic sword fighting game. But I have zero knowledge of programming online netcode, unfortunately.

- Talks with other devs, publishers and my research basically say that physics-based simulation games are impossible to sync online, because they are non-deterministic. Physics-based games are usually local. So far, it seems it just can't be done using the stock Unity engine, and I am definitely not ready to code my own game engine.

- I don't have employees or infrastructure to run a live service game, I don't have resources to moderate the community, run anti-cheat programs, servers, nor do I want to do such things. I just want to make cool sword fighting.

- Hellish Quart is a small indie game. For you to be able to find a match in an online game, there always has to be a very high number of people playing at the same time. Even if Hellish Quart would have like 1000 people playing it online at the premiere, this will taper off to 100, 20, and then 5 in less than a month - and there goes the online mode, just like in all those hundreds of dead indie online games. Then I will have to stop paying for the server eventually and we end up with a truly dead forever game.

- Instead of trying to run a live service online game as a solo indie working from home, I want to make a cool single-player story mode. This way, even in 20 years, the game will be worth playing, even if just for the story. I am working on this right now and hope to bring you the first adventure in the next big update.

- even if I somehow managed to implement a native online mode, it is still just a small niche indie game. Most likely Steam Remote and Parsec would provide a vastly better and more stable online experience than my hypothetical, tiny, indie-budget server.

I realize that quite a few players don't care about story modes, and they just want to beat up random opponents online, but, because of the reasons above, I want to provide more fun ways to enjoy the game solo or locally. But I hear you, native online would be very good to have, and if it is ever possible, I will try to implement it. I just don't know how, and if it is ever possible.

And for all the people that want to play the game online right now, it is easily possible by using Steam Remote Play Together. Press Shift+Tab in the game and invite any friend to join your session, or copy the link to your session and send it to anyone - the person doesn't even have to have Steam to play with you.

I will keep researching and trying to find a viable way to eventually implement a native online mode, but I can't promise it will happen.

You can also watch an older video on that subject here (from 6:51):

https://youtu.be/QEp14oKuvuA?t=412

[Subutai]

Parsec is also possible for those who are unaware even with arcade shutting down. Just can't do it from arcade anymore, you have to host from your computer. I do find this is more stable than steam generally speaking.

Also thanks for addressing this Kubold for those who hadn't seen your previous posts. Hopefully our little communities will be enough to scratch that multiplayer itch. I am excited for the singleplayer all the same and this is one big reason why I bought it :).

[Kubold]

Btw. I see some comments like "stop adding new fencers and do the story already, etc.". I need those fencers and characters FOR the story. I mean, in the story you meet those characters and fight with them. I need to develop the characters and fight mechanics first, and then build stories using those. Can't do it backwards.

[Subutai]

Originally posted by Kubold:

Btw. I see some comments like "stop adding new fencers and do the story already, etc.". I need those fencers and characters FOR the story. I mean, in the story you meet those characters and fight with them. I need to develop the characters and fight mechanics first, and then build stories using those. Can't do it backwards.

Yeah I am not sure why they are requesting this. Especially given we paid with the expectation they would be included and you even took a step further to add more content than previously promised. Keep at it Kubold, many of us are very excited for new characters and stories.

[Gojiraptor]

Respect for addressing this issue openly and on point. Perhaps someone would be inspired by your game and in upcoming decades may carry the legacy that you laid out.

[Got3hit]

If only it was PVP online I would buy , Im going to have to pass on this one!!!

[Monomyth]

Even if you did manage to make an online version, it will still be lousy with cheaters like every other dueling type game. It's nice to see a dev act like a real person, so I will buy your game now.

[* * * ice * * *]

Hello Kubold!

I've also noticed the issue with multiplayer in the game "Hellish Quart" and I'd like to propose an idea that could be beneficial for its development. I suggest extracting the multiplayer module into a separate open-source code so that enthusiast developers can contribute to its improvement. It would be helpful to provide documentation for the endpoints and ensure test coverage for the module. Certain parts of the module's code can be published and compiled into a separate DLL file, which can be replaced for local testing and module enhancement.

Architecturally, for a game like this, the main objective of the multiplayer is to establish a connection between two friends who are playing through Steam. Similar to games like "Overcooked 2," there's no need to create a centralized server. As a player, I would like to have the ability to play with friends consistently, and the current options provided by Steam don't always meet this desire.

I believe that an open development approach for the multiplayer module and community involvement can lead to a more convenient and high-quality multiplayer experience for players.

[Kubold]

Originally posted by * * * ice * * *:

Hello Kubold!

I've also noticed the issue with multiplayer in the game "Hellish Quart" and I'd like to propose an idea that could be beneficial for its development. I suggest extracting the multiplayer module into a separate open-source code so that enthusiast developers can contribute to its improvement. It would be helpful to provide documentation for the endpoints and ensure test coverage for the module. Certain parts of the module's code can be published and compiled into a separate DLL file, which can be replaced for local testing and module enhancement.

Architecturally, for a game like this, the main objective of the multiplayer is to establish a connection between two friends who are playing through Steam. Similar to games like "Overcooked 2," there's no need to create a centralized server. As a player, I would like to have the ability to play with friends consistently, and the current options provided by Steam don't always meet this desire.

I believe that an open development approach for the multiplayer module and community involvement can lead to a more convenient and high-quality multiplayer experience for players.

Sounds nice, but, I can't even imagine how would I make a module that is separate from the game, give it to people, and they somehow will just make a good online mode. I don't think this is possible at all without releasing the source files of the entire game, and I of course can't do that, even if I wanted to, because a lot in there is licensed assets and plugins.

But, I opened the game for mods. If someone wants to, it is possible to add all the code you want to the game along with a mod. Mod system gives anyone a wide open door into the game. You could write a netcode script and just attach it to the character Skin.

I don't know how to do that, but if you know - go go go! :)

And the final nail in the coffin is, that I think you overestimate how many people play this game. The peak player number is 50. Realistically, 10% of that would want to log in and just duel random people on the net. A whopping 5 players. Man, this is a tiny niche game for sword and history fans. I'll make a nice story mode, some progression mechanics... it'll be a fun, unique little game when finished.

[Black-Tie]

Hello after reading the post i definitely agree personally i want a native online but yes it is hard to implement something and even you are a solo developer personally it would be so hard and anyway i hope new story mode will be good. By the way i try steam remote but it was not good maybe because of ping i dont know. I try with my friends but could not enjoy it i am not blaming you because of it dont get me wrong yep so hope you finish the story mode definitely take a look after you finishing it.

[SkiiMa5k]

It's disappointing to find a game like yours which is begging to be a multiplayer experience for friends to duel each other to not have this basic function. Drunken Wrestlers 2, for example, is a physics based fighting game that has multiplayer. I'm pretty sure it was developed by one guy too. There are so many other examples like that can be found on the steam store page too. Your excuse that you can't put online multiplayer in the game because you're a solo dev is kinda cringe. I know I'm not the only one who is waiting for an online mode for this game before purchasing it. Huge missed opportunity.

[polymorphed squirrel]

I'll try to explain where the difficulty lies, if I understand correctly:
1. In an online game, you need to send the information about player input to the opponent.
1. In a physics game, the outcome involves some randomness/apparent randomness, in addition to player's input.
1. On top of that, there is ping delay, which means that you can't even easily apply your opponent's input to the exact same game state as on their machine.
1. Therefore, the results on each player's computer may be different: you just barely manage to parry on your computer, but on your opponent's, the attack goes through.

Which, of course, is bad. Normally, it is the server which stores the canonical state of the game, and each running copy of the game needs to continually synchronize with it, and correct its state *in a fluent way, transparent to the player*. For some games, it will be easy, but apparently, it is not the case for the physics engine in Unity (or whatever third party engine HQ is using). This problem is not easy even if you designed your own solution from scratch, but when you are using a ready solution, may potentially be downright impossible, if the engine used does not make provisions for it. Personally, I am willing to trust the experienced devs Kubold contacted on this one, that it is, in fact, very difficult, if at all possible. I am willing to bet that if it was a question of a couple of weeks, he would have had contracted someone to do it. But when the success is doubtful, then I can understand that it is not something they wish/are able to do at the moment.

However, while an official, anti-cheat, competition ready server may be out of question,
or even any dedicated server, for economic reasons, it is probably possible to create a simple match making frontend component to Steam functionality, at least if Steam allows a game to query for all players currently running it. In other words: not include a proper game server, but just code for setting up a peer-to-peer connection between players who don't know each other. I have no idea if Steam provides this functionality, though (or if there is another service for it, now that arcade is gone).

[kayimbo]

I bought the game because its cool, but to me its not really a game until it has multiplayer. The difficulties are real and I'm not knocking you for it. I wouldn't discount your game and the genre though. Bushido blade sold over a million copies a long time ago.

[* * * ice * * *]

The lack of online frees up the developer's hands. The game turns out to be of better quality. But we still hope that multiplayer will be developed. I even agree if he introduces delays. There are thousands of games in the world with a huge online presence and people are playing! Car simulators, MMOs, shooters! And everything looks great!

My friend and I tried to play Hellish Quart online via Steam. But this gives a big advantage to the host. It would be enough for us to equalize (average) the delays.

[Bran Mak Morn]

Originally posted by * * * ice * * *:

My friend and I tried to play Hellish Quart online via Steam. But this gives a big advantage to the host. It would be enough for us to equalize (average) the delays.

this is exactly the prime issue. you could only ever have a neutral and fair competition if you let the simulation run server side entirely. and servers would need to be provided by Kubold. and those servers would cost money and eventually closed once Kubold moves on... so yeah, never gonna happen.

[* * * ice * * *]

Originally posted by Temujin:

Originally posted by * * * ice * * *:

My friend and I tried to play Hellish Quart online via Steam. But this gives a big advantage to the host. It would be enough for us to equalize (average) the delays.

this is exactly the prime issue. you could only ever have a neutral and fair competition if you let the simulation run server side entirely. and servers would need to be provided by Kubold. and those servers would cost money and eventually closed once Kubold moves on... so yeah, never gonna happen.

For example, games such as Counter-Strike and Wreckfest publish the server to the public. If I bring up the game server, it will appear in the list of game client servers.

I have hardware "under my bed" on which I am ready to host my favorite projects for free. There are thousands like me!

I was surprised, but today you can play Super Mario on an NES emulator with a friend over the Internet! People host many rooms where you can start a gaming session with your friend.