Thoughts on Asian Weapons from someone who studies Asian Martial Arts

[JZBai]

I've seen a few people suggesting the addition of East Asian weapon styles/fighters like samurai or Chinese jian-ke for this game. I often wonder how many of them are made by people who actually have practiced East Asian Martial arts and know what they're actually about and the history behind them. I used to practice Northern Mantis Kung Fu for a while and also practiced Yagyu Shinkage Ryu Kenjutsu and most recently gotten into HEMA longsword (primarily German/Meyer with bits of influence from everything else I've studied). In addition, I also like to read about East Asian martial arts history and compare it to European martial arts history, so I feel that my perspective on the subject is rather unique compared to other people.
As cool as I think it would be to see an East Asian Martial arts rep, my problem is this: what unique thing to the roster would they add besides "Asian-ness" and how would it be done while respecting the historical realism of this game?
The various kenjutsu styles aren't actually too different from certain longsword styles in HEMA. If you strip away the formalities of the kata and just think about the techniques and how they would look in combat, it would be very difficult to determine who is a longsworder or a kenjutsu practitioner unless you pay attention to very tiny details like foot placement or stance differences. Perhaps one difference is that the katana/uchigatana used during the time of Hellish Quart in Japan was generally shorter than the European longsword; however, while this is generally true among the most common kenjutsu styles, Japanese swords actually did come in a variety of sizes and length of sword often depended on style and personal preference. We know of historical duelists during the time of Hellish Quart who used longsword-length katana/odachi like Sasaki Kojiro. In addition, slightly older styles of Kenjutsu like Aizu Kage Ryu from the 15th-16th Century clearly show and demonstrate longer tachi/odachi being used (and even being worn and drawn) which later got transmitted to Ming China and influenced the Changdao/Miao Dao swordsmanship that would eventually develop in the 17th Century as seen in Cheng Zongyou's manual "Geng Yu Sheng Ji." It's just that during the Late Muromachi/Azuchi-Momoyama period, Japanese swords for some reason became generally shorter, probably due to certain blade size regulations, close quarters armored combat in large infantry blocks becoming more prevalent necessitating shorter swords, or simply fashion, but that doesn't mean longswords were completely unused in Japan. So with that in mind and knowing we have one (possibly two if Kubold's comment on Twitter regarding a German longswordsman is true) longsword style(s) already in the confirmed roster, what would adding what is effectively a "Japanese longswordsman with a shorter (i.e. worse) longsword" add to the roster?
Regarding Chinese swordsmanship during this time, the modern notions of wushu-esque jianshu and daoshu fencing where only a single sword is used in one hand actually didn't exist yet or if it did exist, the style has no written sources that we know of. Historical Chinese martial arts manuals from this time like Mao Yuanyi's "Wubei Zhi" only seem to show predominantly either longsword/2-handed sword or sword/dao and shield and there are almost no historical sources showing one-handed jian/dao fencing. The single dao/jian forms from kung fu/wushu seem to have originated in the standardized forms that became popular in martial arts schools/athletic associations that began forming during the late Qing/Early Republic of China era (i.e. 19th - 20th Century) hundreds of years after Hellish Quart. Besides the addition of a sword and shield user (which if one is ever added, I would personally prefer it be taken up by someone more appropriate to the setting of Hellish Quart since there are a lot of potential candidate styles for a sword and shield user e.g. Turkish/Tatar/Mongol sword and shield or Scottish broadsword and targe), I'm not sure adding a Chinese longswordsman in addition to the one (possibly two) additional longswordsman to the roster would make the game more interesting. Even if we forget about historical accuracy and decide to go for a wushu-esque style of jian or dao, when you strip away the fancy window-dressing of the taolu/forms (which you have to remember are not necessarily just a way of transmitting a few practical techniques that are hidden in them, but also a sort of exercise routine to train athleticism) what you will have left is actually quite similar to normal fencing in a sparring situation, except for maybe a few differences in preferences or a few unique stances not seen in HEMA (e.g. Tiger Taming Stance/Pu Bu and Golden Rooster Stance which are situationally used like ducking a high attack with Pu Bu and using Golden Rooster to void a leg cut).

So with all that said, there isn't actually much reason to add specifically East Asian characters that can't already be covered by a similar European one. However, if I really did want a character representing East Asian martial arts from this time period to appear in Hellish Quart, these are my thoughts on what would be the most interesting additions from my perspective:

- A fighter that focuses on Battoujutsu: For some reason, Japan has made an art of sword drawing and there is some suggestion that during this time or earlier sword drawing started to become an art in Japan (see above). But in the context of a game like Hellish Quart, having a battou practitioner might be a bit of a gimmick. Battoujutsu/Iaido is a martial art that focuses on deploying a sword when you're unexpectedly attacked in a civilian context. You're taught to be prepared to draw and use your sword in a variety of non-combat situations like sitting down or walking past someone in the street or while navigating a narrow hallway. In the duel-like context of Hellish Quart, the only real way for a character to be true to the spirit of battoujutsu/iaido would be if the character starts off the match in a unique "sword sheathed" stance that leaves him vulnerable but then has a slew of techniques that he can use to defend himself while trying to get into a normal longsword fencing stance. But once the start of the match is over, all you have left is just a normal longsword fencer. If I were to make a unique character with this in mind that isn't just a gimmick, I would probably not go with the stereotypical Japanese battoujutsu practitioner, but go for something unique that's actually rooted in the history of 17th Century Asia: A Chinese changdao user that has battou-like techniques like those shown in the "Geng Yu Sheng Ji." This choice could also make it so that the longsword fighting is differentiated enough from the other longsworders in the roster since the "Geng Yu Sheng Ji" does show certain uniquely Chinese stances like Golden Rooster Stance. However, I think it will probably not match up with what the average person would want from "the stereotypical weeaboo sword drawing character" that has been ingrained into popular culture... :P
- A double sword/Niten Ichi Ryu practitioner: This one in my opinion would be the most unique addition to the current roster of sword fighters since dual-wielding cut centric swords/sabers is really uncommon in European manuals (most dual wielding in Europe during this time seems to be either rapier and dagger or case of sideswords/rapiers which is mainly thrust-centric), but it's something seen in multiple sources in Asia (namely a few nito techniques in various kenjutsu styles and possibly some extant but unwritten Korean double sword techniques that got added to the "Wubei Zhi" later in the 18th Century when it was republished as the "Muyedobotongji"). In addition, the very famous Miyamoto Musashi and his Niten-ichi Ryu which uses both katana and wakizashi simultaneously are contemporaneous with Hellish Quart's timeframe of the 17th Century. However, one could easily make up a double sword wielding character based in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth since they obviously had sabers and it doesn't take a genius to come up with a system of using two of them; it's just I'm not aware of any historical sources describing double saber in HEMA from that period.

So TL;DR, unless we have an unorthodox battou-centric character or a dual-wielding swordsman, I really can't see any reason to include anyone from East Asia who cannot be represented by a non-East Asian character without fudging bits of history. But that's just my opinion. Hope my ramble was interesting and hopefully you learned something about East Asian martial arts and history while reading! :)

[Someguyinhere]

People like to pretend that Japan and China created magical combat systems that are 100% unique and superior to those of Western systems. Yes, there may be some people who are quite surprised to learn that aside from drill forms, a lot of it is mostly the same.

But, there are probably a lot of people here who have done some kind of Martial Arts in their life, and they probably wouldn't be all that surprised. After all, biomechanics are biomechanics. The same techniques almost always appear in historical systems from all over the world, having evolved independent of any outside influences. What works, works.

It's sorta like when people see hip and knee throws in medieval wrestling and go, "HEY THAT'S A JUDO THROW!" No. It's a biomechanical throw. One which has been discovered multiple times over since man first began developing grappling systems.

[Tiwaking! 56k NZ]

Originalmente postado por JZBai:

- A double sword/Niten Ichi Ryu practitioner: This one in my opinion would be the most unique addition to the current roster of sword fighters since dual-wielding cut centric swords/sabers is really uncommon in European manuals (most dual wielding in Europe during this time seems to be either rapier and dagger or case of sideswords/rapiers which is mainly thrust-centric), but it's something seen in multiple sources in Asia (namely a few nito techniques in various kenjutsu styles and possibly some extant but unwritten Korean double sword techniques that got added to the "Wubei Zhi" later in the 18th Century when it was republished as the "Muyedobotongji"). In addition, the very famous Miyamoto Musashi and his Niten-ichi Ryu which uses both katana and wakizashi simultaneously are contemporaneous with Hellish Quart's timeframe of the 17th Century. However, one could easily make up a double sword wielding character based in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth since they obviously had sabers and it doesn't take a genius to come up with a system of using two of them; it's just I'm not aware of any historical sources describing double saber in HEMA from that period.

The reason you dont see a lot of dual wielding in history is:

- Miyamoto Musashi developed this style in an isolated country at the time when they cut themselves off from the rest of the world. Plus he had only 1000 students or so. In Kendo you rarely see them at 8th Dan (Hachidan level).

- Its not a very good way to fight. If you're good with two weapons, you're probably better with 1 weapon. Even Miyamoto Musashi was a master with a single sword. With such a high skill ceiling, its not a particularly feasible fighting style for 17th century Europe. Rome had the Dimachaerus dual-wielding gladiators in the 2nd century AD.

- Rondoleros: Why have two swords when a sword and shield will do?

[Someguyinhere]

Originalmente postado por Tiwaking! 56k NZ:

Originalmente postado por JZBai:

- A double sword/Niten Ichi Ryu practitioner: This one in my opinion would be the most unique addition to the current roster of sword fighters since dual-wielding cut centric swords/sabers is really uncommon in European manuals (most dual wielding in Europe during this time seems to be either rapier and dagger or case of sideswords/rapiers which is mainly thrust-centric), but it's something seen in multiple sources in Asia (namely a few nito techniques in various kenjutsu styles and possibly some extant but unwritten Korean double sword techniques that got added to the "Wubei Zhi" later in the 18th Century when it was republished as the "Muyedobotongji"). In addition, the very famous Miyamoto Musashi and his Niten-ichi Ryu which uses both katana and wakizashi simultaneously are contemporaneous with Hellish Quart's timeframe of the 17th Century. However, one could easily make up a double sword wielding character based in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth since they obviously had sabers and it doesn't take a genius to come up with a system of using two of them; it's just I'm not aware of any historical sources describing double saber in HEMA from that period.

The reason you dont see a lot of dual wielding in history is:

- Miyamoto Musashi developed this style in an isolated country at the time when they cut themselves off from the rest of the world. Plus he had only 1000 students or so. In Kendo you rarely see them at 8th Dan (Hachidan level).

- Its not a very good way to fight. If you're good with two weapons, you're probably better with 1 weapon. Even Miyamoto Musashi was a master with a single sword. With such a high skill ceiling, its not a particularly feasible fighting style for 17th century Europe. Rome had the Dimachaerus dual-wielding gladiators in the 2nd century AD.

- Rondoleros: Why have two swords when a sword and shield will do?

Correction. You don't see a lot of dual wielding of two of the same weapon. It is quite feasible - and was often the case - to dual wield two different weapons in a way that makes sense. Such as parrying dagger with rapier, or really any kind of smaller blade with a large, primary one-handed blade. You could even make a case for axe/dagger or axe/sword, although that's getting into the realm of "I'm in a fight and I'm just grabbing whatever weapons are around me as I need them" rather than something you'd decide to do on purpose, lol.

Now, if you REALLY want to split hairs, and warning this is splitting them as fine as can be just for fun, technically one-handed weapon + shield is dual wielding. ;p

[Vergilivs]

I just read a bit about Niten-ichi Ryu and I really don't get why the style is about duelling with the two swords when it doesn't seem Musashi advocate it in the go rin no sho.

He very much advocate only ever using a sword with one hand, but he only talks about using the two swords, long and short, when fighting multiple opponents, that's it. Why would he create a style that focuses so much about using the two swords in a duel when he never mention it in the book?

Anyway, as much as I'd like to see off-hands weapons (and using a shield is absolutely dual wielding), I don't see how it would work in the game with the 4 direction system they have going on.

I could see I33 working because sword and buckler stay as a unit in that system but sadly, it doesn't fit the time period.

[Tiwaking! 56k NZ]

Originalmente postado por Vergilivs:

I just read a bit about Niten-ichi Ryu and I really don't get why the style is about duelling with the two swords when it doesn't seem Musashi advocate it in the go rin no sho.

It has to do with the successors to Miyamoto Musashi's school advocating two sword combat.

It does look cool and all, but the guy is just as good with 1 sword as he is with 2. Using 2 swords probably takes more than twice the effort. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAhhZNE3eMQ&feature=youtu.be&t=207

edit: For some reason it wont recognise the code to start the video at the 3:27 mark. So skip to 3:27 for Niten-ichi Ryu

[CumDropButton]

while I.33 was written in 1310 sword and buckler was used till the 1600 so having a fighter that uses some I.33 techniques wouldn't be too out of place I think. I may be biased since sword and buckler is my favorite system next to rapiers.

[Sekij]

An Katana dude is realistic imo, no need for rare miyamoto musashi schools, after the Sengoku Jidai alot of roaming samurai wandered around and just duelled it out obviously they were in civil clothing so they wont have armor and just usaly their two swords (usaly used only one tho).

Thats what makes Musashis Twin Blade Style abit more realistic than someone with an sword and an Shield... you dont carry around and shield usaly :D while Samurai indeed carried around a Katana and a Wakizashi just for self defense and prestige i guess.

I personaly would prefer just an ordenary Katana stil (obviously a longer Tachi is much better but hey Katana is more realistic for civil self defense weapon).

The Kendo style Stances do look quite diffrent to me compared to longsword stances for me, so i would support the idea of add east asian fighter.

[Sir Galahad the Chaste]

It would be awesome to see Mongol/Crimean Kharnate inspired fighters at some point, but I'm unaware of historical knowledge of the martial arts of the region. I would say at this stage a flat out Samurai would be pretty odd, but it would depend on how the roster develops, i.e if the game sticks to fighters in the general region, or if the roster becomes populated with fighters from around the globe.

[Tiwaking! 56k NZ]

Originalmente postado por Bohemond I of Antioch:

It would be awesome to see Mongol/Crimean Kharnate inspired fighters at some point, but I'm unaware of historical knowledge of the martial arts of the region. I would say at this stage a flat out Samurai would be pretty odd, but it would depend on how the roster develops, i.e if the game sticks to fighters in the general region, or if the roster becomes populated with fighters from around the globe.

If they do start adding World Warrior Mode, could you add a Maori warrior pretty please?

[Riku]

I feel like a wandering Ronin using a kendo/iaido mixed style would be both unique enough from other characters and be fun to play with a how you described him starting the match with the blade sheathed. I personally love japanese medieval warriors and their style so having a Ronin or someone of that ilk would be amazing fro me to see end up in the final game.

[Someguyinhere]

Originalmente postado por Riku:

I feel like a wandering Ronin using a kendo/iaido mixed style would be both unique enough from other characters and be fun to play with a how you described him starting the match with the blade sheathed. I personally love japanese medieval warriors and their style so having a Ronin or someone of that ilk would be amazing fro me to see end up in the final game.

Aside from small stance differences, a samurai using his katana realistically wouldn't be too different from the longsword duelists. So its very possible!

[Vergilivs]

Originalmente postado por Volca:

while I.33 was written in 1310 sword and buckler was used till the 1600 so having a fighter that uses some I.33 techniques wouldn't be too out of place I think. I may be biased since sword and buckler is my favorite system next to rapiers.

The problem I have is I don't see the systems in the game working well with two independent weapons. You currently only guard in neutral and are exposed during a strike, having an off-hand weapon should allow you to guard during a strike, which doesn't go well with the current design.

Now I.33 have your buckler mostly stuck to your sword hand (probably depend on interpretations) which make me think it would be able to work in the current system.
I don't know enough about other systems, but seems to me that later sword and buckler treatises have the buckler used independently from the sword, which again, sounds hard to implement.

I agree having sword and buckler shouldn't be a problem with the setting, but using 300 years old techniques might. I wouldn't complain though, I'm a I.33 fanboy.

Originalmente postado por Tiwaking! 56k NZ:

It has to do with the successors to Miyamoto Musashi's school advocating two sword combat.

That's pretty much what I'm implying, but I'm reading it's based on techniques written on a scroll passed on directly by the master. I just can't believe the dude that is so adamant on "never react, always initiate" created a system full of parry and strike.

I might be completely off, I read the book 10 years ago but it left me a strong impression.

[CumDropButton]

Originalmente postado por Vergilivs:

Originalmente postado por Volca:

while I.33 was written in 1310 sword and buckler was used till the 1600 so having a fighter that uses some I.33 techniques wouldn't be too out of place I think. I may be biased since sword and buckler is my favorite system next to rapiers.

The problem I have is I don't see the systems in the game working well with two independent weapons. You currently only guard in neutral and are exposed during a strike, having an off-hand weapon should allow you to guard during a strike, which doesn't go well with the current design.

Now I.33 have your buckler mostly stuck to your sword hand (probably depend on interpretations) which make me think it would be able to work in the current system.
I don't know enough about other systems, but seems to me that later sword and buckler treatises have the buckler used independently from the sword, which again, sounds hard to implement.

I agree having sword and buckler shouldn't be a problem with the setting, but using 300 years old techniques might. I wouldn't complain though, I'm a I.33 fanboy.

most of the time the buckler isnt attached to your hand is in a few guards where the sword is under or over your shoulder, and in cases where your sword hand isnt where you are most open in a strike. the dev seems to be implementing a stance system, so cycling through stance options could work for seperating the weapons. we also currently have special moves that start with a block in the demo so in those cases like a high cross where you would push the buckler under the arm to protect you open side it could just be part of the combo attack.

[TheWabbit]

I do I.33 as well but there is also Marozzo. His works were still being reprinted into the 17th century. There is is no reason we couldn't have sidesword and buckler.

[Vergilivs]

lemme illustrate:

https://youtu.be/jkuS-kCWG94

I'm saying XVIth century S&B looks like it would be harder to implement into the current game than XIVth century S&B because the sword moves independently from the buckler.

I hope I'm wrong and we'll get some sword and buckler action.