Install Steam
login
|
language
简体中文 (Simplified Chinese)
繁體中文 (Traditional Chinese)
日本語 (Japanese)
한국어 (Korean)
ไทย (Thai)
Български (Bulgarian)
Čeština (Czech)
Dansk (Danish)
Deutsch (German)
Español - España (Spanish - Spain)
Español - Latinoamérica (Spanish - Latin America)
Ελληνικά (Greek)
Français (French)
Italiano (Italian)
Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian)
Magyar (Hungarian)
Nederlands (Dutch)
Norsk (Norwegian)
Polski (Polish)
Português (Portuguese - Portugal)
Português - Brasil (Portuguese - Brazil)
Română (Romanian)
Русский (Russian)
Suomi (Finnish)
Svenska (Swedish)
Türkçe (Turkish)
Tiếng Việt (Vietnamese)
Українська (Ukrainian)
Report a translation problem
Discussions Rules and Guidelines
0 
Report this post
The situation about Rooftop running in the external area is not the same with Atrium since in Rofftop special infected gets stuck and in Atrium they don't. We can't force people not to run because that's not cheating.
About the add-on situation it's true that this have to be controlled in order to make the record lists more 'legit'. But that needs a lot of time and work and it's probably gonna make people play less because they have to do everything to proof and that might take lot of attempts, GB of videos, time to proof for themselves and time to proof from admins (I personally don't have).
There is no way to proof if someone used an specific add-on because they can just hide it in their L4D2 folder. The only way to poof it is going personally while the person plays :p
I'm not gonna do that work because there are so many grey areas and ppl thinks different that I'm sure it would bring more and more personal discussions like happened in other groups.
In my opinion this is just a game, it's ment to be played and have fun and its not a competition.
But if someone is brave eough to make a list of not accepted add-ons is welcome :)
Thank you for you answer.
I think in some ways you are right and in some ways i have to disagree.
First of all when i ran pacifist rounds i noticed that Jockeys, Smokers, Spitters and very often Tanks where stucking. They often do on those houses with a blue roof.. I don't know what to call them :D. They also stuck under stairs.
Yes it is true that we can't force the people that they not do this run. It's not cheating that's also true, but i think we should at least make a rule or a separated list for special runs where they get mentioned differently. If we would do that, we also could remove the rule where it says that it's not allowed to run in special areas of Rooftop.
I would prefer that we make a separated list for mall pacifist runs and keep the running on rooftop denied in special areas, because on Atrium they stuck sometimes, but on Rooftop they do always.
Now to the next part. I have to agree with you that it's difficult to make those "controlled" gameplays with videos and many other things. They take a lot of time for the players and also for the viewing admins. This could mean that they play less and send you way less screenshots (this could take your work for keeping this group up which would be in some way good i think).
I agree with you again that there is no normal way which takes not much time to show which addons where used in the folder. Even with a video which shows the folder that would be too much i guess. I thought about maybe an overviewer who watches the games of groups or players if they want to get a listed record but i think that takes even more time for everyone :D.
Yes there are many grey areas, but i think some of them are more grey than others.
If nobody is against it i would take the part to make this list for the group which addons are not allowed.
If we have to choose somebody for this i would vote for "The Happy Falafel" because he has a good sense of what is over the limit of "cheating addons".
I really think somebody has to do this.
I also think everyone should take a short part to share which addon should be denied on this list.
Yes you are right, but a ranked list leads automaticly to a competion. I see many players who are "craving" for high score records even tho "it's just a list".
Sincerely xWeeker.
About the atrium-rooftop issue:
I completely agree running rooftop has to be done "upstairs" since everything does get stuck;
That being said; Atrium has reliable stuck spots aswell though;
Personally; when i run pacifist, and something stucks; i restart to keep my kills at 0 without it feeling cheated, but i understand that nobody is willing to take the "pacifist" tag that seriously :P but the pacifist times are VERY easily recognised and (in my opinion) should definitely be counted sepparately since they make it so insanely much easier to solo.
The more pacifistic you play, the sooner jockeys/smokers/tanks/chargers becomes a non-factor...
Jockeys will usually get stuck (or at the very least one of them) within the first 20 min, tanks stuck like every 5-10 min as the run takes longer and if you hold a canister, all you rly have to care about is dropping the can on the smoker tongues and breaking LOS with the hunters so they never bother to pounce you...
Don't get me wrong; i love playing pacifist; but i'd be lying to myself if i would say it's even remotely close to the difficulty of actually killing everything while running.
btw, unless there's some way to hide it (of which i'm currently unaware); aren't all addons used at the time of the screenshot, visible when viewing a screenshot? if so (and i'm pretty sure it's like that since that's how i found out how many people are dirty little boomerbile removers :P)
i don't see why it would be hard to see if any of the blacklisted addons were used...
Anyways, here are my two cents on the matter;
Wish i could discuss this more in detail and help in finding a sollution, since this is something that has been bothering me for quite some time...
(since basically the only way to take this game serious in a competitive sence is by just trying to improve personally, since you can only really trust yourself)
You'll hear something from me again once my exams are over :P
In the meantime, try not to take it too seriously and just enjoy being competitive vs your own records :P
~The Happy Falafel
Thanks for joining the discusion and welcome.
All the highest solo Atrium demos that I've seen got very few specials stuck or Tanks. Xout's, Boss', Columbu's, vfxfi's, khan's and my pacifist runs are the classic jockey stuck into the elevator. I've seen more Si stuck holding bridge than running around :p
Is not my intention to make separate lists of the same game mode just because it's easier than other strategies. And again it's really hard to tell the difference between a pacifist run of a normal run ^^. Is there a limit of special killed to become a normal run? Who decide this limit and why?
I really just wanna make this simple just by updating records without cheats xD
The Rooftop discussion I think it's pretty obvious because that fits into the rule 'can't use a strategy that makes SI stuck' ;)
About the add-on list I really don't think this is gonna help because anyone can use an add-on of colored SI and you can't see it in the screenshot.
It's really easy to hide, you just have to copy the add-on file from Workshop folder and paste into the add-ons L4D2 folder. I have tested myself because I saw lot of people using add-ons and were not showing in the screenshots.
You can also upload a screenshot that is not yours or record a demo using all kind of mods and then after replay the demo without the mods and take a screeshot.
As I said before, even if you make a short list of mods that you consider unfair (All should vote this? mod by mod?), maybe other people don't think its unfair or other people think that is unfair the silenced weapons mod. I consider myself all mods part of the game. Making a Steam-addons-police control is a really hard job to do and lots of useless discusions in an old videogame of a sub-category in a small group of a challenges :p
I really don't have time to become investigator, I have enough trouble asking for demos and watching them xD
Anyway, thanks for the ideas but I don't see how this is gonna encourage ppl to play more when this is all about have fun playing videogames ^^
That being said; i do think it's interesting to hear from more people in the community what their opinions are on this matter; which is why i decided to join the conversation myself. There are a lot of gray areas when it comes to what should be considered "fair" and i think it would be interesting if we could have more than just one opinion out in the open ^^
The add on thing was my mistake since i was unaware that it was possible to hide it from showing on screenshots.
Still, i think it would be interesting to see if some of the experienced survival players could tell us their opinions on what should be considered fair and whether certain add ons should be banned or not.
I don't expect (or even want) to change the way the community works; since i don't think a lot will really change in a game/community this old. But it would still be nice to find out what other people's opinions are on this matter; so we can potentially atleast compare our times to theirs :P
tl;dr;
I don't want to make you change the way your record lists are made, since that would be too much work for you and likely piss a lot of people off aswell who previously had a record there.
I am merely trying to find out how the rest of the community feels about the way the records are made right now; to see where we could potentially go from there.
Are we all going to make a vote in every mod to decide if its unfair or not? I really don't see how this is gonna work :P
The add-ons discusion it's from 3 years ago and so far noone made a list of unfair mods. Only "Top 10 Survival Records" banned records because someone used colored SI (they have a rule saying "Brightly colored special infected models, or anything that makes SI more noticable", well, it's really very basic explanation to make a record not valid IMO).
Anyway, everyone is welcome to join the discussion so we can see more pov or explanations to make me more open mind about it ^^
First, do mods such as this provide an unfair advantage? There should be no discussion. A big part of survival is spotting the dangers in the distance, dark corners etc. No serious survival player can claim that they would change their Hunter skin to this just because they enjoy that particular colour scheme. Do we even need to get into Remove Boomer's Vomit?
Second, is it possible and realistic to check every listed round, every player for that sort of cheating? Certainly not. This is a casual online community, not an e-sports league - and even these struggle to prevent cheating. But I'd like to think that groups such as this one have a very important role in setting standards for the community, and making judgement calls on what's cool and what isn't.
Let me make a parallel. You couldn't say if someone is using an aimbot without spectating/looking at their demo - and plenty of records get approved with just a screenshot. Does that mean aimbot is acceptable and considered legal in this group? Certainly not.
Last point: yes, it's possible to hide workshop modifications. It's also possible to ask questions when someone never posts screenshots. Or just screenshots looking at a wall with no SI in the picture. Screenshots from demo. When someone more or less unknown suddenly gets very high times out of nowhere. When they never have a demo, or can't upload it, lost it etc.
And yes, some who really want to cheat in a 7-year-old game with no prize at stake might still find a way, and slid under the radar. No system is perfect. I'm just not a big fan of the system where people can just submit a massive fuck you to all legit players and get away with it.
The only way I see this working is making a list of all mods with game changes (skin, sound, graphic, etc) and a large number of ppl vote one mod by one and say if its unfair or not.
I can't find a better democratic way to do this.
I think that what comes to coloured SI skins, it's really about common sense. I don't think it's necessary to make a list about all the add ons that are "banned", because we can just look at the screenshot and see what add ons were used and judge with common sense from that. I don't think there are that many "gray areas" in these SI skins, the ones that give advantage are imo pretty obvious, like the ones that smiley linked here. And if there is uncertainty about the legitimacy of some SI skin showing in a screenshot, admins can always have a conversation about that particular case to figure out if it's legit or not. Most of the times posted in this group are "clean" so it shouldn't be that big of a job to go through and determine the few ones that might not be, so that we could have a consistant and reliable list of records.
Also might be a good idea to demand netgraph showing in the screenshots in the future, so that we can be sure the ss was not taken from a demo. Ofc if someone really wants to cheat, they'll find a way to do it but adding some sort of rules about SI skins would in my opinion decrease the confusion about what's considered legit and what's not. Especially amongst newer players, some people might not know about the controvercy of certain skins, and they might think they are playing legitly.
What comes to the pacifist strat on mall (Im talking about duos, since i have more experience of that), i don't find it cheating. It's just a different way of playing. But I do think it's a hell of a lot easier to reach higher times that way. In my opinion 1 SI/min round is not comparable to 4-5+ SI/ min round, and for that reason i think it would be cool to have a separate list for lower counts / pacifist strat. I aknowledge that in some cases it might be difficult to determine if the round is a "no kill" round, or "kill all" round. For example if a team mate dies and one has to go solo for a while, the counts may drop even if the team has killed everything to that point. For this reason, i suggest that the two lists would be more based on the counts than the strategy used.
Also, with lower counts it's difficult to tell if there was something stuck or not. It's a lot easier to go on with jockeys stuck in the elevator room, than it is when the team risks a lot by throwing molotovs there / unstucking stuff every now and then.
tl;dr:
- Some sort of rule about SI skins that give an advantage should be added to avoid confusion and to clarify that there are standards and cheating is not accepted in this group.
- Would be cool to have a separate list for mall rounds that are played pacifist / with low counts.
Because the mechanic on both runs is the same but you use the advantage given by the games given pathfinding. No SI gets stucked like its the case on rooftop so you can't compare these two in any way.
So if you say running on atrium is cheating you have to say every record with running elements in it have to be cheated (like your solo on you profile). Same as each record done with more than one lap in it (like your best time on atrium).
When it comes to mods yeah i agree i have been using SI colored skins yes i have. I have had times with it. I regret that i used them and removed both the records and mods. Go get OP mods and get 200min+ and then the time will be accepted? I really want to keep this list nice and clear, but there might be people hiding their mods in the ss, i cant say anything since i dont see any mods on the ss so i'll go ahead and accept it as legit time. but seeing V3 mods and some shit like that on a screenshot???
These rules are cool but don't say anything about which mods we are gonna consider as fair/unfair like we want to. It has to be more detailed than that to prevent future problems ;)
Having different lists of different strategies is not what I want for this group sorry.
''I think all should vote that, or at least someone should make a vote system or something to see what community thinks and then use it as a rule here''
>Having two lists would be cool, but not necessary.
EDIT:
Also about the SI skins, you want to be fair and have democracy, right? I feel that most of the people in this group would like to have some sort of guideline on the SI skins, so please don't ignore us. Most of the people don't use any skins on SI, and personally i don't find the SI skins to make the gameplay any better/enjoyable. We could just ban all si skins for all i care, but ofc i understand that might be too strict of a guideline.
I do think we can come up with a solution / compromise that would benefit all. Having times posted with si spotters is just a huge joke to me, and I'm sure most of the people in the survival community would agree with me.