=PF= Excluded Tables from Week Challenges

[Chewable C++]

This thread is the place to discuss whether specific tables ought to be excluded from our weekly challenges.

We want the weekly challenges to be fun. With this in mind, some tables are simply not fun on repeated plays, especially for more experienced players in a competitive context, for a variety of reasons.

This list isn't meant to be a "review" of tables. All FX2 tables are worth playing, just not in the context of our challenge system.

In order for a table to be excluded, there should be wide agreement that the table exhibits one or more "problems":

* Best scoring strategy consists of repeating a single mode. The simpler the mode and the more unbalanced the scoring for the mode, the worse the issue.
* The table is too "safe". A single game can last many hours for experienced players.
* The table has some kind of unbalancing exploit.
* The table has a relatively common, game breaking bug.


CURRENTLY EXCLUDED TABLES:

(ordered/grouped by severity/consensus)

* Spider-Man (scoring - JJ hurry-up)
* Ultron (scoring exploit)
* Rebels (scoring exploit)
* Paranormal (length)
* Darth Vader (length, scoring - Target Drill with MB stack)

* Boba Fett (skill shot exploits, video mode scoring)
* Tesla (scoring - Chain Reaction, very difficult and relatively boring)
* Epic Quest (leveling scoring, length)
* Civil War (best strategy is to spam one shot)


ACTIVE DISCUSSION:

* Super League Football (length, repetitive scoring, game breaking bug)
- Top players can play this for 4-8 hours.
- Game breaking bug with ball getting stuck outside of the mini-playfield.
- Little variety on the table.
+ Great design for what's there (one of my personal favorites).

* El Dorado (length)
- Top players can play this for 8+ hours.
+ Has moderately well scoring WM, but most of the points are from grinding MB.

* Empire Strikes Back (length)
- Optimal scoring strategy (single ball play with saber saver) can take over 10 an hour
- Optimal strategy involves only a few shots (EMPIRE and YODA)
+ Overall nice table design, if it were not for the scoring balance and length issues
+ Less optimal scoring strategy (Balance jackpots) involves much shorter games.

PAST DISCUSSION (kept in):

* Rome (scoring - Romulus MB)
- One of Zen's older tables, the scoring is very unbalanced. Romulus MB scores overwhelmingly better than anything else on the table.
- One of the most drainy and difficult tables.
+ Short gameplay is not necessarily a bad thing.
+ Nice theme.
+ Core table, many people have it.

PAST DISCUSSION (excluded):

* Civil War (scoring - combo)
- Optimal scoring revolves around spamming the right sinkhole (for 3/6 balls, at least)
- Very difficult, frustrating table
+ Unique theme/layout
+ Short gameplay
+ Alternative scoring strategies do exist (repeat WM, Iron Man Direct Hit and Super Combos), but just aren't as effective as sinkhole spam

[T-wRecks]

Agreed on the current exclusions. I like Epic Quest, but anyone not at max level is disadvantaged. If people were ok with the uneven scoring, then it would be fine with me. Since I'm at max level though, that's more for others to decide. The other exclusions all center around spamming a single mode to death, and in some cases the long super-repetitive games that causes. I'd be fine with getting rid of Rome and Civil War for the same "spam this for scoring" reason. I'd rather not exclude SLF. It is repetitive, but it's repeating the whole point of the table, so that's a bit different. And while there are other tables I personally dislike (even ones I'm #1 overall on), I don't think they're to the level of excluding. That's my two cents anyway.

[Chewable C++]

Thanks.

I agree with excluding Rome and Civil War but not SLF.

Let's see if we get any other opinions.

[Blinky]

I agree with everything, except I'm going to do a U-Turn on Chewable's opinion. I think Rome and SLF should be excluded, while Civil War is included. I guess I don't know what the unbalanced combo is....

[Neko Knight]

Wouldn't one of your reasons for possibly banning Rome be the same as why you should ban Earth Defense? Multiball payoff is very high.

[Chewable C++]

Originally posted by Nekro Neko:

Wouldn't one of your reasons for possibly banning Rome be the same as why you should ban Earth Defense? Multiball payoff is very high.

Airstrike is high scoring, but there are other sources of points on the table. I cycled through assignment ranks when I logged my best scores. And you have to be extremely good at airstrike to actually make full use of it - most players aren't there.

Earth Defense also has a very difficult to attain kickback, and getting extra balls is nigh impossible. The play time on ED is reasonable. So that's a plus.

And bottom line is that Earth Defense is fun (imo), and a great looking table.

Also Rome isn't banned currently. Doesn't look like it will be.

[Chewable C++]

After having played Civil War more now, I currently feel that it should be left in.

I'm not entirely sure, but my current feeling about optimal strategy is to actually do a Captain America WM first, then focus on Iron Man Direct Hit and Super Combos. I think this constitutes fairly balanced play. Nearly all modes end up getting some action (there aren't many modes in total, though).

It's definitely a rough table, but I don't think it deserves to be disqualified. It's certainly no worse than Earth Defense, in my opinion.

[BuBbleGuM=PF=]

Your Right I Agree on that one Its A hard table but Spamming this to Billion wil take good skil

[Chewable C++]

... aaand after playing it more, I'm not so sure again. I realized what T-wRecks was actually talking about and it amounts to spam the right sinkhole repeatedly. That is indeed not fun and no better than the spider-man table.

Very few people seem to exploit that strategy, but that doesn't really make it right.

It's also possible to achieve good scores by repeating WMs and/or Iron Man Direct Hits, but that's much harder and doesn't seem like it can compete with sinkhole spam. Although the sinkhole scoring only works for 3 balls. The other 3 have to be something else.

[BuBbleGuM=PF=]

Yeah i Find it Pretty Anoying table

[Mordachai]

I agree with your latest assessment... also, I'll probably never play the table ever again...

[Chewable C++]

Added ESB (and SLF previously) to the active discussion list.