Someone's really gone too far this time

[g051051]

I have to say that you people who are slamming the developer and the game have really taken it too far this time. I just had a conversation with him and he told me that some of our lovely kickstarter backers here managed to locate his bosses and made some kind of complaint to them to try to get him fired.

I don't see how you can condone this kind of behavior. Regardless of how you feel about the situation with the game, or even with the developer as a person, attacking a mans livelihood is just completely unacceptable and beyond reason.

I hope whoever was responsible will take a hard look at themselves and lay off this offensive and unjustified behavior.

[Bilby Longears]

Whie I'm not going to condone contacting an employer, let's remember that in spite of releasing this "game" some months ago, he has yet to provide the promised keys to the backers who helped pay for the development of it. That, and he has yet to provide any of the promised updates, even though it was sold on the basis that the content (which amounted to the actual game beyond tutorial levels) was to come.

[g051051]

It's a ridiculous thing to try to get him fired over a *video game*.

[Bilby Longears]

He took $17000+ through Kickstarter, and failed to produce the game (only making a tutorial) and then failed to even provide the people who invested that money with access to that tutorial. He reased a tutorial on Steam charging $10 per copy knowing that it was incomplete, but promised that if people purchased it they would get an updated version with the full game shortly thereafter - and then disappeared.

This is not about a 'video game'. This is about ripping off investors and customers by failing to meet basic obligations and carry through with promises. At the very least, the people who paid for this on Kickstarter, supported Slade and made this possible, deserved access to the tiny amount he actually produced - as he promised repeatedly, but didn't do. Those who purchased the game on the promise of updates deserve those updates.

[g051051]

You're in no way saying anything that justifies a personal attack outside the scope of the game. You want to be toxic and vindictive on KS or the Steam boards, well, that's fine I guess. But doxxing the man and making false claims to his bosses in the hopes of getting him fired is reprehensible.

[Bilby Longears]

I'm not arguing that he should be fired, although let's be honest - if I was an employer and had hired someone who had effectively taken $17,000 from Kickstarter backers and not provided them with what he promised then I'd probably want to know. There's no doxing, and I have no idea who would be contacting his employer. Personally, I'd be more inclined to follow a class action suit. But either way, I can see why backers and those who purchased his game under apparant false pretences are angry.

[g051051]

You continue to contradict yourself. You assert that the behavior we're talking about is wrong, and then make comments apparently trying to condone it. Regardless of your feelings about the game and the way the KS went, there's no justifying the kind of attacks that were made against him and his livelihood.

As far as a class action is concerned, what's the basis? Backing a project on KS isn't a purchase or an investment. Kickstarters don't always succeed. There was no fraud on this one...as far as I can tell they made an honest good faith attempt to deliver the game. Even big time major studios can fail at this, and often do.

I've actually stopped using Kickstarter almost entirely due to failures and disappointments in the projects I backed.

Coffee Joulies: neat idea, totally didn't work.
Astronaut: Moon, Mars & Beyond: Never delivered (turned into Star Rangers).
Two Guys SpaceVenture: 4 years late so far.
Underworld Ascendant: 6 months late so far.
Thimble Slide: 18 months late so far.Finally delivered 21 months late!

[Bilby Longears]

> ​There was no fraud on this one...as far as I can tell they made an honest good faith attempt to deliver the game.

You think so? He produced the game. (Or at least some of the game). He released it and sold it on Steam. But he didn't give the keys to the people who collectively paid $17,000 for copies of it. This was not simply failing to produce the game. This was failing to provide the backers with the portion of the game he did produce, and which they had paid for, in spite of stating repeatedly that he was in the process of sending out the keys.

So let's say that Two Guys SpaceVenture finally produce the game, sell it on Steam, and then choose not to give any of the backers a copy. That's what we're talking about here. This is not the same as failing to produce the product because of unforseen circumstances. This is just taking the money and not meeting your promises when you are perfectly capable of doing so.

[g051051]

It's still not fraud. Since there is still a possibility that the keys will be distributed, regardless of the delivery date, there's no proof it'll never happen. So far it's just bad luck and poor management. And there's no legal obligation for Two Guys SpaceVenture to ever deliver anything to the backers. Would it be a terrible abuse of KS and the backers? Absolutely.

I freely admit there are a lot of problems here, but the fundamental issue at hand is that the attempt to get him fired was far beyond the pale of what should be considered acceptable. Your constant attempts to paint him as a villain in this circumstance are exactly the problem...we shouldn't even be having this debate in this thread.

[Bilby Longears]

> Since there is still a possibility that the keys will be distributed, regardless of the delivery date, there's no proof it'll never happen.

At the point when the keys are finally distributed, then yes, he has met his obligations. But until then, no - he has failed to meet them, he has taken $17,000 from backers on the promise that he would give them copies of the game, and almost 12 months after the game was released and he explicitly stated he was in the process of handing them out, the keys still haven't been sent out.

> And there's no legal obligation for Two Guys SpaceVentrue to ever deliver anything to the backers.

You really should read the contract on Kickstarter.

> Your constant attempts to paint him as a villain in this circumstance are exactly the problem...we shouldn't even be having this debate in this thread.

Seriously? The developer seems to have ripped of his Kickstarter backers by not providing them with the promised game, even though they collectively put $17,000 into its development; the game was released; and he explicitly stated that he was sending out the keys - but didn't. He told purchasers of the game that he would be releasing updates that would make it playable, and not only failed to do so, but never even bothered to explain why. I'm having a hard time seeing him as anything other than the villain in this piece.

Fine, we'll go with the idea that contacting his employer is a bad thing - after all, there's no reason why his employer should know about this, right? But let's not pretend that his actions are defensible.

[g051051]

Again, you pursue the troubling tack of saying (essentially): "It's bad that someone tried to get him fired, but after all, he is a terrible person". There is no justification here...you're just following the same line of thought as whoever did the doxxing.

I just re-read the KS contract, and to my eye (IANAL) he's met his obligations. You might want to dispute the details, but as a backer I find that he followed the contract as best he could, even though the project did not get done as promised:

<quote>
If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:

* they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;

* they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;

* they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;

* they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and

* they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
</quote>

I've seen all of his updates explaining what happened (the failure of the team to stay together, his struggles to complete the game on his own, and the hardware failure that wiped important assets).

I've seen that he continued to work after the team collapsed, and did develop the game in some form, albeit reduced.

I don't see any evidence of misuse of the funds. I.E. no one has come forward with claims that he took the money and spent it on things other than game development.

I feel he's been incredibly honest and forthcoming about the huge difficulties he faced in this project, especially in the face of the incredible and baffling abuse he's been subject to.

I saw repeated offers and indications of backers receiving refunds. I received my Steam key when he said he'd deliver it.

So how did he fail to honor the KS contract?

[Bilby Longears]

> I just re-read the KS contract, and to my eye (IANAL) he's met his obligations.

Let's read the first line, shall we?

"When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers."

Did he do this? No.

"If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers."

Did he do this? Again, no.

All he had to do was email the Steam keys to the backers. He stated that he was doing so on May 24, 2016. Did he send them? No.

On May 28 2016 he states that he's currently cutting and pasting the keys. Did he send them? No.

On September 28, 2016 (five months after he claimed to be in the process of sending emails) he states, again, that he is sending out Steam keys. Did he do so? No.

After that, nothing. Just disappears, doesn't post again, and never sends out Steam keys to the people who backed his project. He failed to meet his obligations under the contract.

For some strange reason you are desperate to defend taking $17,000 from backers, even though he said he released a game, and even though all he had to do was email the keys. He did not meet even the most basic expectations for providing them with he promised, which in this case was an incomplete game, but still better than the nothing he gave them. That's without even considering the promises he made here to people who purchased his game, even though it was incomplete.

If he ever turns up here and starts doing what he promised, then he might win back some respect. But I don't see that happening 12 months after he released the game.

Out of interest, why are you so inclinded to defend his behaviour? It is all well and good to call out people who contact his employer, but why then defend taking the money and failing to send the keys?

[g051051]

You're carefully omitting the fact that the contract concludes as I documented it, with the description of what to do for a failed KS. I think it's clear that this is a failed KS project, so those lines come into play. I'm not defending anything...he made some huge mistakes in this project, up to and including not having good backups and asset management for the game code. Which is not particularly surprising for a novice game developer. But backing a KS project is *always* a risk, and in this case it didn't pan out.

I'm not particularly interested in defending him. I think I've been realistic in what I said, and my experience with the project was different from yours...I mean, I got my Steam key as promised. I don't know Slade. I've exchanged a few emails, and he's been polite, helpful, and informative.

My main concern is that people are going insanely overboard with the vitriol that's being thrown about. And I find it personally offensive that people are making attacks by going to his bosses.

I'll ask the same question back to you: why are you so inclined to persecute him? Every time you ostensibly agree with the idea that he shouldn't be attacked personally, you then go on to enumerate all the reasons you think he deserves it.

[Bilby Longears]

> You're carefully omitting the fact that the contract concludes as I documented it, with the description of what to do for a failed KS.

He produced something resembling the game. He failed to provide copies of the game to the backers, in spite of promising to do so and being capable of doing so. That is not a failed Kickstarter where they were unable to complete the project. That is choosing not to give the backers what he promised to give them.

> I'll ask the same question back to you: why are you so inclined to persecute him?

I'm not persecuting him. I am pointing out that what he did was unethical, against his agreement with the backers, and against the contract he had entered into. Why should I support someone who took money from his backers and chose not to even given them the minimum amount that he promised, in spite of being capable of doing so? I porefer to speak out agaiunst unethical behaviour.

[g051051]

You keep doing it in the context of the attempt to get him fired. You keep bringing these assertions up in what seems to be an attempt to justify it. I just can't fathom how you can continue to play both sides of this.

[Bilby Longears]

> You keep doing it in the context of the attempt to get him fired

No I don't. I repeat - I'll accept that his employer should not have been contacted. And no, I do not accept that what he did to his backers and thsoe who supported his game was ethical or able to be defended. These are two separate claims.

Anyway, at this point it is clear that we'll get no further. I'll stand by my view of what he did. You can stick to yours.