DRM or no DRM let us discuss about it!

[Raidor [dph]]

DRM means "digital rights management" and it looks like some people misunderstand what it is. Games from TopWare Interactive have use a unique serial key, have an activation and an OPTIONAL registration.
Cons:
- serial key needs to be entered
- game needs to be activated
- only 5 activations, if you want more, you need to send an eMail request to [e-mail]
Pros:
- life time warranty for the game once purchased - means:
* free support by eMail
* once purchased, you get free updates for ever (e.g. Knights & Merchants, released 1998, last update 2014)
* if you lose something - game, Steam account, whatever - you get replacement
* if registered, you can even lose your serial key and get a new one
* you can switch gaming platforms (Desura, Steam, GOG) - or even convert to Steam from closed platforms like NetGames, GamesLoad, Games 4 Windows
- the serial key (or registration) identifies the ownership - this is DRM - we manage your right to use the game you purchased.
- we never switched of a game server or any other server in the last 20 years, and we will not do it in the future.
Now, we think about making the DRM optional. But one thing is clear: if someone decides NOT to want a serial key - he will lose all privileges connected with the DRM.
Give us your opinion please!

[Whispers of Winter]

first: thanks for opening this discussion.

imo Steam is DRM enough, because the game is tied to my account. I can redownload almost all of the games here as often as I need to (e.g. after bying a new laptop) WITHOUT activation limit (except the Two Worlds series; I think there are a few more titles I don't own)

the people who don't want to pay for your work won't do it anyway

plus the DRM system used for the Two Worlds series didn't work for a lot of people (see forums), and support was... a bit lacking. I own both Two Worlds and Two Worlds II on Steam and on GOG, but I would never buy a game with this kind of DRM again.

my personal conclusion: release Raven's Cry on GOG or remove the additional DRM and I will definitively buy it.

Edit: you won't see any "newer" titles by Ubisoft or EA in my library just because of their DRM policy.

[rmn878]

This is not a post I expected to see so thank you for doing this

My big concern would be the support, so many (good) companies manage to let everyone down with the support for this. Steam forums are littered with un fixed problems with DRM. Also, I bought this game, I own it. Not 5 times. Period. Maybe I end up loving this game and play it till I am 99, but I got through 5 computers and no one is any longer avaliable for support to allow me more downloads (extreme example but I hope you get my meaning). Like the person above said, two DRMs for steam is excessive. But once again I stress the issues that DRMs have caused problems and support can be an huge issue, even with grade A companies and many people can not even play a game because of technical troubles.

Just look at negative reviews of games with DRMs, most of them are I LOVED THIS GAME, but do NOT buy because the DRM has caused numerous technical problems. In many cases leaving the games unplayable

You guys opening this post renews my faith in you, my opinion, Optional DRM sounds just right for everyone

[Whispers of Winter]

P.S. what do you mean I can "switch gaming platforms"? - e.g. if you purchased a Desura key or Gamersgate key, we will give you a Steam Key on Demand.

[SORA]

Do yourself a favour make it without DRM , or optional.

[mr1948]

"- only 5 activations, if you want more, you need to send an eMail request to [e-mail]
Now, we think about making the DRM optional. But one thing is clear: if someone decides NOT to want a serial key - he will lose all privileges connected with the DRM."
Screw you guys! I'm not going to rent a game from you.

[=M$= Oroberus]

- the serial key (or registration) identifies the ownership - this is DRM - we manage your right to use the game you purchased.

Really nice try but you should have better not chosen to go down the rights and ownership path there.

In a matter of legal fact, based on how "ownership" of software is handled in most countries today, noone ever OWNS a software with purchasing. All the customer are granted is the license of limited use within the terms and conditions of the company. Especially in Germany (TopWare is a german company so especially here this counts bigtime) you never have the right to call a software your posession.

Why don't you past the paragraph from Ravens Cry regarding reselling, non commercial duplication and reservation of proprietary rights of the acquired product?

Going down the line of "DRM is good for the user" is big mistake in times of "you don't own ♥♥♥♥"-contracts.

You should really think about replacing that guy in the marketing who came up with the glorious idea of taking it to this level.

EDIT:
Besides that, I still think that RC will be a great game and I really appreciate TopWares effort to react on this issue as it was cooking a long time now in in the community.

Just take it out, especially as this whole issues was dumped by the customers years ago. You hardly find any DRM besides Steam on most games (except for the pathetic tries of EA and Ubisoft to establish an own platform of user control and online sales).

[Garrett]

Back in September you said the Steam version had no activation limit whereas this post says five activations. Which is correct?

I descriped the DRM as it is/was in our former games (e.g. Two Worlds Series). Regarding Raven's Cry we did not make a final decision, yet.

[Narcissistic Cannibal]

Your so-called pros are garbage.

"free support by eMail"
WOW, THANKS, I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR IT ALL MY LIFE!!111

"the serial key (or registration) identifies the ownership - this is DRM - we manage your right to use the game you purchased"
I am the only one who manages my rights, okay?

"once purchased, you get free updates for ever"
Steam does this for me.

"if you lose something - game, Steam account, whatever - you get replacement"
How can I lose a game from my Steam account?

"you can switch gaming platforms (Desura, Steam, GOG) - or even convert to Steam from closed platforms like NetGames, GamesLoad, Games 4 Windows"
So, here you are speaking about your old games, not RC. And those platforms were closed for a reason: they sucked.

"if registered, you can even lose your serial key and get a new one"
Another buІlshіt arguement. One Steam activation is enough to secure my game.

Summary: cut the fuсkіng DRM out.

[Cuddle Bunny!]

The game isn't coming out anyways

[Revelator]

lol trolling drm questions ever seen....

[Revelator]

legend of grimrock drm? witcher series drm? risen trilogy drm? TESIV-V drm? divine divinity series drm???etcetcetc
stop trolling us about drm please.

[hexaae]

- only 5 activations, if you want more, you need to send an eMail request to [e-mail]

Worst idea ever. If I want to play the game some years later and email address has changed or for any other reasons it's hard to contact support... will be a serious problem.
The game IS MINE once honestly bought. I don't want restrictions or need to ask your permissions.

About Steam, it's already a DRM system so doesn't need additional chains.

[Revelator]

Цитата допису hexaae:

- only 5 activations, if you want more, you need to send an eMail request to [e-mail]

Worst idea ever.

About Steam, it's already a DRM system so doesn't need additional chains.

+1

[Raidor [dph]]

Some Remarks:

- it seems that no one really understands our intensions. Handling these activations is a lot of (really stupid) work for us. It would be much easier to wave it.
- the DRM is not a copy protection. First of all - 10 minutes after release of a game - everyone can find a hacked Version in the net. Beside this, who does not pay for games can find a cracked copy anyway.
- Steam is great, alone the fact that Eath 2160 (Steam ID 72) was one of the first games from an external Company should proof that we always have been friends of Valve. BUT, as much as we like Steam, we do not know if it will stay, as it is now, forever. Company policy may Change, ownership may Change ... and what happens with your purchased games in such a case? - just imagine one or more of the following "slightly" changes of policy: 1. subscription will cost a montly fee 2. Steam retail activations will have a Charge 3. only Premium Users (who pay a monthly subscription) have full Access to all Steam Features OR ... immagine: Steam is sold to EA, Amazon or someone else who you like even more. (this hopefully will all not happen - but ... nobody knows! - who is the new CEO of Unity? who acquired Oculus VR?)
- over the Holidays I was doing customer Support. You cannot immagine how many users want to revive an old game. If they can proove somehow they bought it, they all got a new download, or whatever else they needed.
- a Steam Publisher has limited possibilities to help a Steam customer. We e.g. cannot give any refunds. We can not identify a user. We have only Information about the customers who activated or registered their games with our DRM.

I do not want to defend our DRM, but once we realease a game without it, we do not know who bought it. And if anything happens all your games are gone.

btw: the remarks regarding Raven's Cry will never come out are not very productive. We do our best to release a great game. We have here to withstand the beating - but we have to pay more Money to the dev Studio the longer the development takes and have no earnings from the game in the meantime at all. So basically we are sitting between all chairs, but have to decide if the game is ready to release or not.

[Whispers of Winter]

Цитата допису Raidor dph:

Some Remarks:
...
[1] - the DRM is not a copy protection. First of all - 10 minutes after release of a game - everyone can find a hacked Version in the net. Beside this, who does not pay for games can find a cracked copy anyway.
[2] - Steam is great,... BUT, as much as we like Steam, we do not know if it will stay, as it is now, forever.
[3] - over the Holidays I was doing customer Support. You cannot immagine how many users want to revive an old game. If they can proove somehow they bought it, they all got a new download, or whatever else they needed.

[4] I do not want to defend our DRM, but once we realease a game without it, we do not know who bought it. And if anything happens all your games are gone.

[5] btw: the remarks regarding Raven's Cry will never come out are not very productive. We do our best to release a great game. We have here to withstand the beating - but we have to pay more Money to the dev Studio the longer the development takes and have no earnings from the game in the meantime at all. So basically we are sitting between all chairs, but have to decide if the game is ready to release or not.

[1] thanks for being that honest, most publishers tell us DRM is needed to protect their product against piracy

[2] true, but all of us live with the Steam policy already (e.g. they can close our account without reason or warning) and are (hopefully) aware of that when we decide where to buy games (Steam, GOG, retail etc.)

[3] that's exactly why Steam is great: I just have to login into my account and can redownload the games I paid for as often as I want to

[4] again, that's our risk to take. If I buy a book or a skirt in a store and I lose it or it's destroyed, it's gone.

[5] absolutely right. making a game surely is a lot of hard work and takes time. and btw I LOVE the Two Worlds games, that's why I immediately would buy Raven's Cry if the DRM was removed.