New feature: Time left until the next wave

[rasmus_ljunggren]

So I have been working a lot on the AI yesterday and today, and I have added something that could help with debugging the difficulties. Some of you may not like getting to much information about what is going on behind the scenes while playing the game because it destroys the element of surprise. But as the game is still in alpha mode and I am supposed to get as much help from you the game testers as possible I decided to add this as seen in this screenshot:

http://i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae36/ralleman/TimeLeftUntilNextWave.png

As you all can see I have now added a wave timer, it says how long time it is left until the next wave will emerge from a portal nearby and how many creatures will come. With this information I think that the player can give me much more useful information about where the flaws in the difficulty lies.

I have also tweaked the game so that it is harder to get a hold of some resources in the dungeon (like rocks). But on the upside I have increased the amount of starting materials and creatures that the player gets from start.

What do you think?

[Lemon Head]

hello, i think any additional things we can get on screen and maybe off screen would help emensly :), What are blue jelly's with egg's are tehy to attack you or just sit around waiting for water ?.

And I love the RAT traps and the cooking stoves, The idear behind that is sweet to look at even when you do not see much at all :).

That attack wave should it only happen only once you have fully discovered a teleporter ?. I mean it would be more reasionable for those trying to learn the game to find out that once you have at least an imp run close to or uncover one by cloud of fog, then the timer would start, maybe a warning could come up on screen saying attack imminent or something to allow the player to freek out before they do get attacked ?.

I have played the new patch 1.3 and started a new map, the iron igots, with coal ? i have not found any just yet but im early into the game but it makes making iron a little too hard i think, but give me more time to test this out :). but i like the fact that things requiring metal slabs the ones you make easily enough are now used in a lot more items :).

[Grunt]

On Normal and depending on portal layout the waves inevitably overwhelm until crushed. It forces the player down specific strategies entirely focused on trying to prepare for imminent attacks or be obliterated.

There's little room for error, nor for the player to secretly experiment and grow. - secret being a key element that's missing.

Instead, the entire human world appears to know exactly where the dungeon is and B-line to it over and over, with more and more waves until destroyed. All the while the player has no idea where any of these portals are. The more the player finds the portals through backtracking the invasion, the more portals (beyond those) that become threats too. This is how it becomes almost inevitable.

Some of that is worse depending on the randomized locations of the portals relative to the dungeon heart.

Easy / fighting low level humans is boring. This is a main reason Normal is probably used by most - there's more of a balance between combatants on both sides relative to their levels and abilities. But there has to be time without being utterly and constantly rushed to actually do that depending on play style.


Recommendations - make these configurable:
- Each wave trigger time random based on:
-- A minimum time (in seconds or minutes) between waves.
-- A maximum time (in seconds or minutes) between waves.
-- These would provide:
--- Better immersion without a known constant for attacks.
--- Allow players to customize how their game plays out based on their own preferences.
--- Those wanting max intensity with no rest can make it as aggressive as they care to.
--- Those wanting least intensity (turtle mode) get to focus on building their underworld empire.
--- Doesn't force specific narrow strategies.
--- Doesn't force using Easy mode just to have time to focus on dungeon and exploring.

-------------------
Just a note on random: I've been a developer for decades and at this point one of the best / fast and truly random number approach I'm aware of is also one of the easiest.

Technique:
- Generate a GUID (one of the most random strings known to man).
- Take the hash from the GUID yielding a usable number.
- Use the hash number as the random generator seed.
-------------------


Beyond this instead of simply wave-based attacks it would be far more ideal to have something that actually feels like a logical system. Waves feel (because they are) cheap in every game I've ever played. It's a quick way to make something happen at the expense of a more AI-based approach where entities do things that make sense.

For example this game is growing substantially in its depth in meaningful ways. The player is gaining a large variety of tools and things to do. Having cheap wave-based assaults over and over for the sake of providing difficulty feels wrong and breaks quality / immersion.

Instead of that it would be better to have something that feels like the humans grow in awareness of the dungeon threat and start taking actions to try and halt its growth, and eventually try to destroy the player.

In this way the player would be able to take advantage of being stealthy and secret in their activity. After all - the entire underworld should be unknown to both the player and humans until actively exploring it uncovers stuff.

Humans should not automatically know exactly where the player is, nor the reverse, without actually discovering it. Further if humans discovered the player and they were all killed there's no word coming back from them about the location of the player - all the ones that discovered the player are dead etc.

The more mistakes the player makes at exposing their existence and location the more they'll pay for it with assaults - if the player is too brazen before being ready they'll get annihilated.

These are just some thoughts on how the game could be made deeper in its scope and feel.

[Lemon Head]

played the new version got to wave 12 and i got totally wrecked, i think its good but theres no way to recover ill read this other guys post but just died horribly to wave 12 :P

btw i agree with grunt on the aspect of waves, but making coal and stone to make iron is again something that makes the game so much harder for protecting your pack. as the later waves those guys with the hammer's really kill base :P

edit.. Stone bridges all mobs walk above the block when walking across the bridge, and in fast forward even appear to fly into the sky and come back down again :P

[DustBust]

I've played this game a few times between updates but I cannot find any ore on two games now, or very rare nodes of ore... I don't mind the waves but if this is where the game is going is fine but I would like to at least almost set myself up for a tower defense idea and know where the wave is coming from, feels like I fight one wave off to find another wave burrow through the other side of my base. Yes and in the end, you get overwhelmed... too quickly...

[Bomb Bloke]

The main problem I'm finding is that each wave comes out as a single group. You end up with one clump of rogues, and one clump of knights. All enemies in each group more or less walk on top of each other all the way from the portal to the dark mother (though rogues tend to get broken up a bit as they dig/build their way through the terrain). Creatures grouped in this manner get a huge combat advantage against enemies who are spread out, even if they're only a second apart, because they can all attack an opponent in the exact same moment and often kill it before any of them take any damage at all.

On the other side of the coin, it's very difficult to get your whole force into battle within the space of a few minutes, let alone "all at once". If you can manage to clump your orcs together in the same way (by making them sit on a flag for some time before the enemies reach them) then you're generally ok, but they'll otherwise be wiped out.

Clumping monsters other than orcs together doesn't really work. Piggehs/ghosts only reach battles by the time they've been won/lost anyway, and monkeys/rogues will run halfway across the map after the first enemy they see.

So I think combat would change significantly for the better if creatures attempted to spread out realistically - maybe if another creature is within the same tile they are, they should attempt to slow down a small random amount (or go sideways) until they're moving in a tile of their own. Sort of like how DK's creatures spread themselves out.

I think Grunt has a good point about how enemies shouldn't just beeline your base. Patrolling AI would be a good start towards dealing with that, perhaps have them pick a random portal elsewhere in the dungeon and use that as their destination.

Like Code}{atch, I'm also not seeing a lot in the way of iron ore these days. Large roots seem to be missing, too.

[rasmus_ljunggren]

Thank you all for these great suggestions.

What I will fix ASAP:
1. More iron - We need iron to make training rooms and survive the waves.
2. When enemies arrive through the portal, don't clump them all together by releasing them all at once.
3. Default game play should be that the waves are not getting stronger unless the player starts expanding and claiming portals. Then we can have a "power rush" game-play where they keep on coming like now and the player can see how far he can make it.
4. The enemies should not know the direct way to the base unless the player has revealed himself (part of point 3). I will keep the timer up there for now to keep the game play simple and give the player as much info as possible. But the timer and strength of the enemies will depend on point 3.

Additional things I will add to the to-do list:
1. Patrolling enemies between some portals, I love that idea!
2. Enemies will come from the surface down through the portals, so when enemies are released they are released on the surface with a specific portal in mind to descend through. This could make it easier for the player because he could get an heads up from where the enemies are coming and can therefore prepare his forces.
3. Guard rooms - very important right now!
4. Traps - They need to be improved, right now there are a little to messy to use. I usually just build pressure pads and dynamite to clean up the waves.


So that is what is on my todo list atm, I will release the ASAP version tomorrow, and work on the additional features next week and try to get the 2:nd version out before the end of that week.

If there is anything else I should add that could make the current game experience better and that are doable within this timeframe please let me know :)

[Grunt]

@Rasmus you've proven repeatedly your real desire to listen and incorporate changes the community thinks will improve the game. Very much appreciated.

It's clear we're all interested in trying to help make this game the best example out there. There may not be a huge community here yet, but what does exist is very constructive.

Once all the items in the lists are done I look forward to another set of extremely thorough runs.

Those changes sound great on paper. If they translate to better gameplay it'll be another awesome step forward.

Helping make Survival mode as thorough, dynamic, interesting, deep and fun is my biggest interest.

[Lemon Head]

rasmus_ljunggren, I can not wait for your changes, and to test them, i think if you keep iron the way it is atm, you will need to add more coal root appearing, it looks sweet when its there. Does it fall like Dirt ?. but thanks for putting it out there, more testing more game plays :P