GTOS vs Combat Mission vs Theater of War.

[Puma]

Hello guys. I have recently had the pleasure of finding out about these 3 war sim games, and I cannot wait to buy one. I do have a few questions though before I do so.
I am a WW2 fanatic and love the realism involved in these games but I need help deciding.
Keep in mind graphics mean nothing to me when compared to actual gameplay.

I am more interested in WW2 infantry tactics as opposed to solely tank operations. Though nothing is wrong watching a Panzer crush some enemies :)

GTOS looks like it has major emphasis put on open terrain and tank battles, and the infantry play a minor role. All the maps I see are wide open fields?

I am kind of leaning towards Combat Mission as the videos I have watched on youtube seem really awesome, with more focus on infantry and actual buildings in which they can hide behind/in. If I were to go this route, which one should I get? their website has about 100 different Combat Mission games.

And lastly, Theater of War seems to be made by the same company as Combat Mission but it doesnt seem to be in the WW2 era, thus ruling this title out.

Thank you for your feedback in advance, and please help me get my fix on a great war sim!! Cant wait to join you.

[sprn'gr]

I believe that theatre of war has some major performance issues (read the forums), I have played it and at times it lags like crazy.
Combat Missions is a treat to play but is turned based which means in single player you can take as long as you like to plan moves; in the multi player there is a time limit I believe ( I have not played the multiplayer).
I cannot really comment on operation star as I have only just started playing the game, but so far so good.
I think all these games can be tailored to suit a more infantary biased game.
Your choice would depend on wether or not you want multi player or single player and a turn based or rts game.

[Major.Pain]

If infantry combat is what your wanting above all else i would agree that one of the three Combat Mission games on the new engine (x2) covering battles in Normandy, Italy or Eastfront is the way to go.
Theartre of war, i only enjoyed the first one to be honest, all the others after that i never spent much time on, they didnt float my boat lol.
GTOS for me is the most enjoyable of them all but its strong point is the game as a whole, i would say that based on infantry alone it is not the strongest.
You could give one of the old Close Combat games a go, infantry vs infantry is entertaining :)

[FlashBurn]

Hmmmm theres alot of infantry and infantry weapons (meachine guns, mortars, field guns) in GTOS. Theater of war senarios get over the top in a small area. Combat mission is a pretty solid game. But as stated is turn based. You make order and then watch how they unfold. Gtos is realtime with pause with a command bar system, looks better than either of those and its maps are way larger.

[[WG] Rayfer]

Actually, the Combat Mission games were never truly turn based, they were WEGO, where you plotted your moves and then the AI played out the turn in a simultaneous resolution as you sat and watched. The newer releases have the option of WEGO (simultaneous turn based) or pausable real time. I like both Combat Mission and GTOS. If cost is a factor, the newer Combat Mission games are much more expensive. TOW never did it for me, they are ok but not nearly as good as the other two choices.

[sprn'gr]

Originally posted by WG Rayfer:

The newer releases have the option of WEGO (simultaneous turn based) or pausable real time.

I have not played the newer version tbh will have to have a look.

[Puma]

I see many of you are saying that Combat Mission is turn based. I have downloaded the demo for Combat Mission Battle for Normandy, and when I launch a scenario it allows me to pick many options such as - Hot seat with 2 players. single player turn based. and it also offers REAL TIME single player which I have been trying out and must say it is really cool.

[XShadowY]

In my opinion the biggest disadvantage in "Theatre of War", compared to the other entries you named, are the scripted missions. You want to flank the enemy? Okay, just make sure that you don`t do that at the point were the enemy reinforcements will enter the map. They will pop up right next to your units and decide the match in 20 seconds. Missions are mainly made of attacking or defending trenches, there are no real meeting engagements. For me the missions/ campaigns had no replay value since every enemy unit is exactly at the same spot where it has been before. At the time when it came out the graphics were real nice (this was the reason I made a few videos with it) but the landscape didn`t feel right. There are no real forests with believable lines of sight. There were collections of trees, yes, but it never felt like something you can hide in. But as mentioned before, the game breaker have been the scripted missions and this you don`t have in "Combat Mission" or "Achtung Panzer".

[Badger BrownCoat]

I'd lke to point out that Combat Mission you choose, like xcom: apocalypse, turn-based or pausible real-time.
And - i now see Puma said the same thing.
CM/battlefront, i have an issue with their pricing and dlc, notice they aren't on steam, I think they are a litttle too 'proud' of even their old games, but - I can say, for ww2 goodnes,s I don't think you can beat CM.

[76561198070744080]

CM is micro manage hell. The graphics are cartoony(Cartoon Mission) and for their CM:RT game they are copying from Graviteam and not very well either.

The price for CM is not worth the bother, unless you just want a marginally better Theatre of War game.
GTOS is a quality game at an affordable price.
GTOS beats all pretenders to the throne hands down.
GTOS is the future of RTS and the rest can only hope to aspire to the same level of dedication and cutting edge game play that can only be had with a Graviteam product.

[FlashBurn]

Originally posted by rogersdane51:

CM is micro manage hell. The graphics are cartoony(Cartoon Mission) and for their CM:RT game they are copying from Graviteam and not very well either.

The price for CM is not worth it either.
GTOS is a quality game at an affordable price.
GTOS beats all pretenders to the throne hands down.
GTOS is the future of RTS and the rest can only hope to aspire to the same level of dedication and cutting edge game play that can only be had with a Graviteam product.

Wow there. Tell us what you really feel. =)

I do feel that GTOS beats combat missions. It says something when you stopped buying them after kharkov 1943 and APOS/GTOS. But I did have alot of fun with CM shock force (the last one I got).

But either of these 2 are better than theater of war series. Although tow aint that bad, its just not that great either. I think they attempted to make it more "main stream". Lost something in doing so. Not so "real".

[76561198070744080]

All I can say is, all the above mentioned games have Demos'.
Try them and judge for yourself.

[St0rm_Dr1pp19]

keep in mind rogers and flashburn are both GTOS boys as you can read. rogers hardcore.

I have been playing both the Combat Mission games from the first one up to the most recent. I have them all. I also have all the GTOS games and all the DLC. I play both religiously and frequent the forums at graviteam.com and http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=180&s=feacbbbd428ab77cb72f9a2eae8fea9a. Use translator for the second link. I also frequent the battlefront forums along with other clubs/sites that are centered around the combat mission games. I also own all the TOW series and have been a frequent visitor of the TOW forum on battlefront. I also made a few mods for the game. So all around I know all three games pretty well and have played the hell out of them.

Now your statement "I am more interested in WW2 infantry tactics as opposed to solely tank operations. Though nothing is wrong watching a Panzer crush some enemies :)" clearly is pointing you towards the Combat Mission series (as you also stated). Forget about TOW. Out dated and I would only pick up if it was on a major sell. GTOS and CM are much better. If you are truely looking for playability with infantry go with CM. Even though GTOS does not do a bad job the scale is so large that you men will look like little piss ants when playing. Yes, I know you can zoom in but then how the hell do you what else is going on. All you need to do is what you already did - watch some youtube vids or dl the demos.

They both can be played in Real Time allowing you to pause and review the map to see what is happening. CM can also be played in 60 second turns. You issue your movements / firing orders and watch the next 60 seconds play out without being able to do anything about the outcome. Then rinse and repeat. The thing that I like is that you can watch that 60 seconds over and over at every angle from every squad or tank on the battlefield. You never miss any parts of the action. GTOS does not have this option which really sucks. Some will argue against it but I enjoy zooming into ground level and watching a faust take out a tank or some infantry getting ambushed around a corner. If you are not at that specific spot in GTOS then you never really know what happened. They are dead set against this type of play and bash it and the CM series. I do not really understand that as I am pretty sure the CM series has more followers and with GTOS adding something like this could potentially steal some sells.

Also if you are looking to play Head to Head with a friend or someone on the net then forget about GTOS. No H2H support. boo. hiss. Again the dead set against it. They do not see a need and would like to allocate resources to other parts of the game???? TOW does have a H2H function and the couple times that I played it, it was pretty fun. All realtime no turn based. Now CM has both realtime with pause and turn based H2H function. The turn based function will allow you to play H2H with another player by email. You send a turn with your orders and then you opponent watches it, plots his turns and sends it back. A guy has developed a program to help deal with the sending and receiveing of turns called Head to Head Helper. Using it with Dropbox is pretty easy.

Model or graphics wise I think they are all comparable. GTOS might have a slight edge but as you already stated you are not worried about the graphics.

I do wish that CM had an encyclopedia like GTOS. That thing is awesome. So is the ability to see where exactly your tank was penetrated, by what type of shell, and the line of trajectory the shell hit at. CM has nothing like this. They recently added hit decals but that is the best that you will get for now. They also do not have an encyclopedia. They had it in the first couple games but left it out of the next generation. Again like GTOS with the multiplayer, they wanted to divert resources elsewhere in the game and felt it was not needed.

So all three games have their flaws and good points. TOW is old and like I said get it if you see a sale or are itching to play in Korea instead of WW2. GTOS has its positives but missing out on some of the action as it unfolds with the lack of a replay sucks. The encyclopedia and the detailed reports on armor hits is awesome. Graphics have a slight edge on CM. Get this is you do not mind tiny units due to the large map size and enjoy beating up on the computer after you learn how to play the game. CM handles infantry the best out of all three by far. The scope of battle is not too large where you men turn into pixels on the battlefield and you cannot find them. Hand to hand combat is non existant but close quarters action is very fun to watch. And the best part is you can watch it over and over again without missing any action. Also if you are tired of the lack luster tactics of the computer, then CM will allow you to battle another wargaming nerd head to head. There are many sites out there now that hold tournaments and even campaigns that are solely centered around CM. CM also has a map editor, scenario editor, campaign editor, and quick battle function. I am pretty sure GTOS has a quick battle function but as far as new scenarios or campaigns that are user made I dont think.

Like I said, I own all three and still play all of them. Each has its own feel which makes it unique and fun. I am not partial towards one game or company unlike some so I would recommend you download the demos and play them before dumping a lot of cash into either of the series. Let me know what you get as I am always game for playing CM or TOW against other humans.

[Puma]

Thank you for the replys guys, it has given me much to consider.
I enjoyed playing the CM demo but my god, the pricing is outrageous.

To get the CM Battle for Normandy, the 2 addons with it and the "2.0" upgrade will run me $100. I understand quality costs but this is a 10+ year old game. That is ridiculous. And this is only one of their many titles.

Looks like GTOS is the only reasonable choice for now.
Cheers.

[Major.Pain]

CM Normandy is only about 3 years old, the very first CM Beyond Overlord is around 15 years old and that is pretty cheap.
I enjoy the older CM games more than the newer ones, they are a little more abstract but have a quality all of there own. You can pick it up on GOG for $10, worth a go for sure.
Also have a look at Panzer Command Ostfront very simalar to the old CM games too.

http://www.gog.com/game/combat_mission_beyond_overlord

http://www.matrixgames.com/products/391/details/Panzer.Command:.Ostfront

[St0rm_Dr1pp19]

Ouch. Hope you did not miss the sell on GTOS! It was going for 8 bucks a day or two ago. Now it looks to be back at full price.