A few questions about the Warhorse and the Vampire Prince.

[sjgf]

If a character with the Warhorse and at least one other Follower loses to the Vampire Prince which of the following should happen: a) the should the character lose a life and the Warhorse and one other Follower; or b) should the character lose a life and and just the Warhorse ?

These choices do not take into account whether the character has some way of then saving that Life or the Follower or Followers.

And in a related way, if a character has only one Follower, the Warhorse, and is defeated by the Vampire Prince should the character a) lose the Warhorse and one Life; or b) should the character lose the Warhorse and two lives ?

[Sharp Hand Joe]

I think you lose automaticaly the warhorse as soon as you lose a life in result of lost combat

[sjgf]

Originally posted by Rudolf von Stroheim:

I think you lose automaticaly the warhorse as soon as you lose a life in result of lost combat

But should that also cost the character an additional Follower or, if the character does not have any other Followers, two lives as well ?

[Sharp Hand Joe]

Originally posted by sjgf:

Originally posted by Rudolf von Stroheim:

I think you lose automaticaly the warhorse as soon as you lose a life in result of lost combat

But should that also cost the character an additional Follower or, if the character does not have any other Followers, two lives as well ?

No I mean Lose life because lost - loses warhorse now the vampire takes the aditional life

[sjgf]

Originally posted by Rudolf von Stroheim:

Originally posted by sjgf:

But should that also cost the character an additional Follower or, if the character does not have any other Followers, two lives as well ?

No I mean Lose life because lost - loses warhorse now the vampire takes the aditional life

Yes but I am not asking what happens, I am asking what should happen.

As noted in my original post above there are two ways to interpret the way things should go when a Vampire Prince defeats a character with a Warhorse and at least one other Follower and takes a Life from that character.

The text on the Vampire Prince Card says in part: "If you are defeated, in addition to losing 1 life, he will kill 1 of your Followers at random."

Now to me that means in one interpretation that the Vampire Prince will take a Life and take a Follower at the same time and that this might happen before the Warhorse is discarded. So the Vampire Prince could in this interpretation take the Warhorse at the same time as taking the Life and if that was the case then the defeated character would not have to lose another Follower or, if without any other Followers, another Life because the Vampire Prince took the Warhorse Follower.

The Warhorse Card text says in part: "If you lose a life during any battle or psychic combat, you must discard the Warhorse."

In another interpretation however it could be argued that, from the text on the Warhorse Card, the Warhorse might be instantly discarded before the Vampire Prince takes it so the Vampire Prince has to then choose another Follower to take instead. So that would mean that the Vampire Prince would then not be able to take the Warhorse and would either have to take another Follower if possible or take another Life.

So which way is really the correct way to resolve a Psychic Combat where the Vampire Prince defeats a character and takes a Life from that character and that character has the Warhorse ? Does the character lose a Life and the Warhorse and one other Follower or Life, or does the character lose one Life only because the Vampire Prince takes the Warhorse as the Follower that it wants to take so that the character does not have to then lose another Follower or another Life ?

[Sharp Hand Joe]

I dont know if there is anything on the official rules bout that since I never owned the real thing.
Then again its up to interpretation so anyone can say anything but I agree with the game's

[sanityismyvanity]

Interesting question.

At first glance I thought this would be something you could resolve with the Simultaneous Effects rule, but upon further investigation, I think the Vampire Prince randomly selects a Follower to kill first.

The Vampire Prince says "If you are defeated, in addition to your losing 1 life, he will kill 1 of your Followers at random. If you have none, you lose 1 additional life instead."

The Warhorse says "If you lose a life during any battle or psychic combat, you must discard the Warhorse."

I think the sequence would work like this:

1) The Vampire Prince defeats you. You now lose 1 Life and 1 random Follower is killed at the same time. If you haven't any Followers, lose 2 Lives instead.

2) The text on the Warhorse (if it is still around and wasn't killed by the Vampire Prince) is now triggered upon having lost a Life as a result of losing a psychic combat, and the Warhorse is now discarded.

I think the key difference is the Vampire Prince kills a Follower at the same time as losing a Life, whereas the Warhorse is only discarded after a Life has been lost.

[Ragic]

so if an effect would cause you to lose an object, and you decide to alchemize an object, does that then mean you dont have to lose another object?

[☼Desendos☼]

Adding to the complexity of this. What should happen if you encounter Mummy and Vampire prince together?

I think these card effects should go before the battle life loss due to some enemies(medusa) making it so you don't lose a life at the end of the battle.

So it could go 2 ways depending on the order the effects are handled in?

Mummy Effect(lose life)->Discard Warhorse->Vampire Prince effect(follower or life)->Normal Lose battle life loss = Lose potentially 3 lives.

Vampire Prince effect(lose follower or life(warhorse lost inside this effect this time))->Mummy Effect(lose life)->Normal Lose battle life loss = Lose potentially 2 lives.

Or should these effects increment the amount you lose when you reach the final life loss, not handle each loss of life individually? In which case medusa would stop you losing a life from the mummy's effect, or because she says you do not lose "a life" if your losing 2 does this override that effect?

[sjgf]

Desendos, I don't think that the card effects, as you write, should go before the normal loss of lIfe that a character suffers, unless a rule or the card says otherwise, when a character is defeated and normally loses a Life as a result.

I think that if a character encounters both the Mummy and the Vampire Prince together and is defeated and loses a Life then the Mummy would take an additional Life regardless of the Vampire Prince as the loss of the additional Life is simultaeneous to the loss of the normally lost life. The Vampire Prince would at the same time take a Follower or a Life if a Follower could not be taken. So I can see how the combination of the Mummy and the Vampire Prince could take 3 Lives if the character did not have any Followers.

Now if the character's only Follower was a Warhorse then the Vampire Prince would kill the Warhorse at the same time as the Mummy took an extra Life. So the character would lose two lives and the Warhorse. On the other hand if the interpretation was used that the Warhorse got killed at the moment that the character lost its original Life then the Vampire Prince would again take an additional Life instead because it couldn't use its ability to kill the Warhorse and the Mummy would still take its additional Life so three lives would be taken from the character as well as the Warhorse.

As to the Medusa being in the same Psychic Combat the Medusa's card says in part: "If you are defeated, you do not lose a life. Instead, you must miss your next 2 turns." From this I would deduce that the Medusa would prevent the character with the Warhorse as its only Follower from losing its original Life that it would normally lose if defeated which would mean that the Warhorse would not be killed as a result, then the Vampire Prince would take the Warhorse using its ability, then since the character did not lose a Life the Mummy would not take an additional Life so the net effect would be that the character would not lose any lives but it would still lose its Warhorse, and the character would still lose two Turns.

If the character did not have any Followers then the Mummy and the Vampire Prince would try to take a Life and the Medusa would cancel this but then the Vampire Prince would try to take a Follower and because the character did not have any Followers then the Vampire Prince would then take a Life as a result which the Medusa would not be able to cancel as it only cancels the loss of the first Life lost as the Medusa's ability says in part: "you do not lose a Life", it does not say that a character does not lose 2 or more lives.

Complications, complications ...

[Gallifrey - CSSC Gaming Founder]

Originally posted by Desendos:

Adding to the complexity of this. What should happen if you encounter Mummy and Vampire prince together?

I think these card effects should go before the battle life loss due to some enemies(medusa) making it so you don't lose a life at the end of the battle.

So it could go 2 ways depending on the order the effects are handled in?

Mummy Effect(lose life)->Discard Warhorse->Vampire Prince effect(follower or life)->Normal Lose battle life loss = Lose potentially 3 lives.

Vampire Prince effect(lose follower or life(warhorse lost inside this effect this time))->Mummy Effect(lose life)->Normal Lose battle life loss = Lose potentially 2 lives.

Or should these effects increment the amount you lose when you reach the final life loss, not handle each loss of life individually? In which case medusa would stop you losing a life from the mummy's effect, or because she says you do not lose "a life" if your losing 2 does this override that effect?

Re Mummy plus Medusae - BOTH life loss and turn loss should take effect - reason being that it is the Mummy not the Medusae causing the life loss. Got to be careful around those multiple card squares.

S.x.

[Gallifrey - CSSC Gaming Founder]

As an aside what I hadn't realised until the A.I. bought multiple warhorses that the warhorse benefit stacks multiple times. I thought horses were like weapons - you could only use one in each battle. This makes low strength high craft characters unbeatable in battle if they have the money.

S.x.

[sanityismyvanity]

Originally posted by sjgf:

Desendos, I don't think that the card effects, as you write, should go before the normal loss of lIfe that a character suffers, unless a rule or the card says otherwise, when a character is defeated and normally loses a Life as a result.

I think that if a character encounters both the Mummy and the Vampire Prince together and is defeated and loses a Life then the Mummy would take an additional Life regardless of the Vampire Prince as the loss of the additional Life is simultaeneous to the loss of the normally lost life. The Vampire Prince would at the same time take a Follower or a Life if a Follower could not be taken. So I can see how the combination of the Mummy and the Vampire Prince could take 3 Lives if the character did not have any Followers.

Now if the character's only Follower was a Warhorse then the Vampire Prince would kill the Warhorse at the same time as the Mummy took an extra Life. So the character would lose two lives and the Warhorse. On the other hand if the interpretation was used that the Warhorse got killed at the moment that the character lost its original Life then the Vampire Prince would again take an additional Life instead because it couldn't use its ability to kill the Warhorse and the Mummy would still take its additional Life so three lives would be taken from the character as well as the Warhorse.

As to the Medusa being in the same Psychic Combat the Medusa's card says in part: "If you are defeated, you do not lose a life. Instead, you must miss your next 2 turns." From this I would deduce that the Medusa would prevent the character with the Warhorse as its only Follower from losing its original Life that it would normally lose if defeated which would mean that the Warhorse would not be killed as a result, then the Vampire Prince would take the Warhorse using its ability, then since the character did not lose a Life the Mummy would not take an additional Life so the net effect would be that the character would not lose any lives but it would still lose its Warhorse, and the character would still lose two Turns.

If the character did not have any Followers then the Mummy and the Vampire Prince would try to take a Life and the Medusa would cancel this but then the Vampire Prince would try to take a Follower and because the character did not have any Followers then the Vampire Prince would then take a Life as a result which the Medusa would not be able to cancel as it only cancels the loss of the first Life lost as the Medusa's ability says in part: "you do not lose a Life", it does not say that a character does not lose 2 or more lives.

Complications, complications ...

I'm sanityismyvanity, and I approve this message.