Battle for the Atlantic

[deece16]

I looked but didn't see anything on the subject, so I thought I'd bring it up.

How will the battle for the Atlantic be portrayed in the game. I mean, in WWII, the U-Boats played a very important roll in choking off supplies to Britian by sinking so many of the supply ships. Mostly those supplying Britain (inbound from other countries and thier collonies) to keep thier production going and thier economy and feeding their population. Currently, supplies just come in, without being challenged. The battle for Britian wasn't just an Air battle, there was all the supplies to support them that was being waged as well. There isn't much point of making a U-boat fleet as Germany if Germany can't go after Britian's supply network with it.

[ORION]

not to mention germany can just import oil from south america all war without worrying about a blockade, the raw materials just majicly transfer

[deece16]

So no reply to this one eh? I suppose that if you have no "good" answer, that nothing is better?

[Chris-BattleGoat]

We have already indicated that the AI will be a later stage development. I did not think it was required that I repeat what I've said in other threads. There simply aren't answers to some of these at this time.

This was also posted on a Saturday morning. There's no one at the office.

Just because we don't reply to a thread, doesn't mean we don't read it.

[deece16]

Chrisahi, I realize I came off kinda strong. I didn't meant to be a ♥♥♥♥. That said, you answered a question about AI that I didn't ask. I know that this game isn't complete and I'm not asking about a minor adjustment. This resourses gathering machanic is really important as it played a VERY big part in the war. If this isn't addressed, playing as Germany is kinda pointless from a historical stand point. Britian was so close to loosing the war via being choked off by the U-boats.

I started the German campaign, and then realized this issue, and I don't see the point in trying to play a somewhat historical game as Germany without this resolved, so I just quit. I will likely not pick this back up until that is resolved.

Again, I mean all this in the most constructive way possable. I think that anyone who knows a little something about WWII and enjoys a historicly accurate game will agree with this assement.

[Chris-BattleGoat]

I understand where you are coming from, thanks for the clarification, and we are aware that the Early Access version of the game will be missing some elements that are key to some players. I know of a few players who have bought the early access for the reduced price with the intention not to play until "release", I certainly have no problem with that.

I mentioned AI because the battle of the Atlantic will invariable involve AI regions and need a different level of Naval AI than exists at this time. It impacts the design.

My concern was that, due to how much we respond to posts, a "non-response" seemed to you and could seem to others as being an intentional ommission, but sometimes we simply have nothing to say on an issue at this point in development. Some elements we have grand ideas but no idea if they'll pan out. Some elements we're struggling to find good ideas. The issues surrounding the Battle of the Atlantic are not something I'm ready to discuss at this time, but the issue is on our radar.

[Utis]

Originally posted by chrisahl:

I mentioned AI because the battle of the Atlantic will invariable involve AI regions and need a different level of Naval AI than exists at this time.

What changes to the game you have in mind to discuss for the Early access, when all things could not talked about until the very end, when you will finally come to work on the AI? Almost everything except cosmetics touches the AI. I for myself will not play this game until there is a military superstructure. Nonetheless I've followed the discussion. But it seems meaningless, because everything that goes beyound minor bugs or a fortification beneath Sewastopol is out of discussion, because it touches the AI...

Because of that I leave the discussion at this point. I think its fruitless. At the very end I will show again and decide, if I want to spent time with the game or if it is was a waste of money. :(

[Chris-BattleGoat]

To answer your question, I will discuss features I know are part of the engine. Other members of the development team may decide to discuss things at greater length than I do. That doesn't stop users from discussing design ideas and we do listen to those discussions and learn a lot from them.

[oriolus]

I think the original suggestion (deece16) is legitimate and important. Knowing the previous two games (SR: 2020 SR: CW) will not be solving the problem, as the developers of the SR Cold War, not only modify the new draw game. -
Azt gondolom, hogy az eredeti felvetés (deece16) jogos és fontos. Ismerve az előző két játékot (SR:2020, SR:CW) nem lesz megoldva a probléma, mivel a fejlesztők a SR: Cold War módosítják csak és nem új játékot készítenek.

[Jmac]

Friends...Countrymen...Fellow gamers...Lend me your eyes...

Now having said that...lets be realistic...No ww2 game is ever going to have everything everyone wants. So lets be fair about trade offs.....the complaint about supply is no doubt coming from veteran hearts of iron players and maybe just some history buffs (i'm both of these). While it would be nice to have a hoi type supply system...it would be nice if HOI 2 &3 had actual air combat and naval battles. Sadly HOI doesnt, they cheat on that so bad its literally pathetic........so no..maybe we dont get real supply (which by the way never worked 100% like it should of in hoi anyways) but we do get naval and air battles.....

so In MY opinion thats the trade off. Now we all are entitled to our own opinions and in our desire for perfection sometimes we come down to hard on a game, especially if its still in development and that hope for change or added features exists, however lets try to be fair and realistic people as well and know there are going to be some major trade offs and differences in game. Looking at he issue overall.....I say naval battle and air combat is worth more then the supply because you still get a good enough supply system on the macro level. So lets not be hasty and say things we will regret when everything in life comes down to whats worth it for the individual and this is suppose to be entertainment. If its entertaining play it..

[deece16]

Originally posted by jmacjmac006:

Friends...Countrymen...Fellow gamers...Lend me your eyes...

Now having said that...lets be realistic...No ww2 game is ever going to have everything everyone wants. So lets be fair about trade offs.....the complaint about supply is no doubt coming from veteran hearts of iron players and maybe just some history buffs (i'm both of these). While it would be nice to have a hoi type supply system...it would be nice if HOI 2 &3 had actual air combat and naval battles. Sadly HOI doesnt, they cheat on that so bad its literally pathetic........so no..maybe we dont get real supply (which by the way never worked 100% like it should of in hoi anyways) but we do get naval and air battles.....

so In MY opinion thats the trade off. Now we all are entitled to our own opinions and in our desire for perfection sometimes we come down to hard on a game, especially if its still in development and that hope for change or added features exists, however lets try to be fair and realistic people as well and know there are going to be some major trade offs and differences in game. Looking at he issue overall.....I say naval battle and air combat is worth more then the supply because you still get a good enough supply system on the macro level. So lets not be hasty and say things we will regret when everything in life comes down to whats worth it for the individual and this is suppose to be entertainment. If its entertaining play it..

While I'm not too fond of you calling me unrealistic and a whiner (implied), I do see your point. However, the German U-boats in the game are good for what without being able to attack allied shipping lanes? What? Am I to go after the british navy with my fleet of U-boats? That's laughable. Also, of importance about the use of U-boats, if you are focused on that (as you can do in HOI) you can hold the resupply to the beach at bay as well (effectively winning the battle of attrition for any would be invasion on German beaches). And if you are really good at controlling the engilsh channel, you could stop an invasion all together. You are saying that we should just be ok with this? That Britian should just have all the resources at thier desposal? This would severiarly unbalance the game. A fully supplied Britian and USA for the war's entirety would mean Germany would have no real shot. Are you sure you are a history buff?

This is the first 2 lines from History Learning Site (a UK based history learning website):
"The Battle of the Atlantic played a very significant part in World War Two. In World War Two, after the escape at Dunkirk and the inspiration of the Battle of Britain, the Battle of the Atlantic was Britain's next nightmare." - http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/atlantic.htm

Some other sites so you can brush up on your WWII history you self proclamed history buff-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/timeline/factfiles/nonflash/a1151821.shtml

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/uboat_war_1940.htm

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/history/wwii-campaigns.html

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/News-and-Events/Special-Events/Battle-Of-The-Atlantic (This one I think you will find most useful)

[deece16]

Is there an update on this at all?

[ORION]

just have to say without resources and supply being at stake there is no battle of the atlantic.. also apperently germany will never suffer an oil shortage, or metal problems as it wont be blockaded and can just order whatever it needs over seas... simply put any resource problems in ww2 simply dont exist in this game... as germany you can pretty much buy all the oil u want from mexico and USA will just have to watch... and UK certanly dosent have to worry about being starved by u-boats... USA bombs the Luna Oil works, or a ball bearings plant hitler can just have a rush deleviery in less than a second to replace his industrial supplies and oil from anywhere in the world

[deece16]

So... No updates to this at all? It's starting to sound to me like this will not be included in the game. <sigh>

[BattleGoat Studios]

While there have been various suggestions made over time of how to simulate the merchant / resource shipping aspect of the Battle of the Atlantic, there are of course a number of simulation and gameplay issues that need to be dealt with based on the type of RTS game engine that we use.

There are two types of shipping of concern - one is the shipping of finished military units (such as American units shipping to the UK, or German troops shipping to North Africa). This is well simulated by the engine, and the issues of shipping, intercept, and escort are all at play.

The other, which is the main point of the above posts, is the shipping of raw materials (food, oil, ore, etc). Since those goods do not physically move in the SR1936 map, those are the ones that are much more difficult to simulate being intercepted or threatened. Whatever mechanic we do will be a bit of a kludge (for instance, reduce UK's ability to purchase goods based on German U boat positions? Affect direct diplomatic transfers? etc)

So the raw materials issue hasn't been forgotten, but we are also balancing that with the need not to put in something that just doesn't work well in gameplay. The alternate solutions are some way to restrict the UK's ability to buy goods, and we are considering how that could work out in-game.

-- George / BattleGoat.

[deece16]

George,

Thanks for the response. I do hope that something reguarding this in implemented in the final game as it's rather large issue to me. The way HOI3 has it work is that the movement of ships/convoys/supplies is always going on, and always takes the shortest routs. The ocean is divided into regions and then further divided into zones. Subs are placed on convoy intercept duty and search constantly the assigned region. The odds of finding and sinking convoys are all based on numbers (of subs in the region, tech of the subs, of number of escortes in covoy, ect. ). The total number of ships avalable for moving goods determins throughput and as this number goes up and down, it constricts or expands Briton's suppy compacity. It's not too terribly complicated, and most of it isn't represented on the map or in the game sufice the supply screen.

Something simlure could work here I think. Just food for thought.