This game should be renamed: Save Scum - The Game (Enhanced)

[Ancient Toaster]

Early game is such a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ chore with all the encounters that can go so horribly bad for you so quickly.

At least it gets better once you get some levels, but early game is garbage.

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

Originally posted by AncientToaster:

At least it gets better once you get some levels

Highly controversial topic.

For many a fan, the early game (minus Candlekeep) from level 1 up a few levels is the real classic and the best part of the game. Once the characters have become stronger, more capable and more reliable, many a fan restarts at level 1 with a different party build.

[Ancient Toaster]

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

Originally posted by AncientToaster:

At least it gets better once you get some levels

Highly controversial topic.

For many a fan, the early game (minus Candlekeep) from level 1 up a few levels is the real classic and the best part of the game. Once the characters have become stronger, more capable and more reliable, many a fan restarts at level 1 with a different party build.

OK? The early levels are terrible. Mages are weak and useless. Most casters are weak and useless actually. Fighters with Longbows are basically the only class that excell.

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

Well, it seems you can't await the epic levels in BG2EE then.

In BGEE, don't underestimate level 1 and level 2 wizard spells. Blindness, Grease, Color Spray, Glitterdust, Resist Fear, Web, Stinking Cloud. Priests' Hold Person, Draw Upon Holy Might, Entangle, Protection from Evil.

[wendigo211]

A while ago a player did a detailed post on the WotC forums showing that a house cat would kill a level 1 Wizard with ease. This was 3rd Ed. too, where a level 1 Wizard is a bit stronger than his 2nd ed. counterpart (mostly due to INT bonus spells, which don't exist in 2nd Ed.). The Dark Sun setting went as far as making level 3 the starting level (I think Planescape also started at a higher level, but that might have just been my DM). So even the publishers have acknowledged there is a problem with the first couple of levels. It's even more of a problem with combat heavy CRPGs that have always struggled with how to handle the lower levels, ranging from horrible (Temple of Elemental Evil's starting town), to midly amusing (NWN2's Harvest Festival).

The majority of PnP players I've played with agree there's a sweet spot generally between levels 5-10 where the characters are strong enough they won't die if someone sneezes on them but not so powerful that they have to invade the nine hells to get a decent challenge. It's a shame the CRPGs don't really focus on those levels.

[Silvaren]

D&D 3.0 and 3,5 has balance only at level 8. On level 8 characters gain 2 attack per round for classes with base attack bonus 1 or 3/4, so fighters and both clerics and rogues can attack twice, sorcerers and wizards have stone skin etc. This is why The Temple of Elemental Evil has level cap 10. This is why Baldur's Gate was quite low level story - even Icewind Dale for the most part (while based on AD&D which is unbalanced most of the time).

Both Neverwinter Nights in first half an hour bring your character to level 3 (new feat, triple hit dice, higher skills) because - like you said - "a house cat would kill a level 1 wizards with ease" and it's true. I remember when my mage with the sling killed rats in Candlekeep and then shoot the cat, you know - for exp. I end up dead, killed by the cat.

But D&D isn't about balance. There was no balance in AD&D, no balance in D&D 3.0 / 3.5. Only in some point in 4th Edition, when the game was designed like MMORPG with competitive classes in few roles.

Just like D'amarr from Darshiva said. Fans often replay the game after a while with fresh character. It's the charm of the beginnings. Even in cRPGs released years after BG, starting a new adventure is always one of the best moment in games.

That's why I never use mods to skip Irenicus Dungeon, Peragus Mining Facility and others such levels. And Baldur's Gate forged a term "get wolfed". The first area with Sarevok's ambush, there is a newbie-party killer wolf. And there are bears in this area and in Peldvale and even if you are going to new location you can walk straight into bandits trap and the rain of arrows while you have 1 level character. But after few levels you have enough power to kill Noober yourself.

[Ancient Toaster]

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

Well, it seems you can't await the epic levels in BG2EE then.

In BGEE, don't underestimate level 1 and level 2 wizard spells. Blindness, Grease, Color Spray, Glitterdust, Resist Fear, Web, Stinking Cloud. Priests' Hold Person, Draw Upon Holy Might, Entangle, Protection from Evil.

Yeah and you can use them 2 times and then have to rest.

It's just such a scummy and stupid way to play. The game gets MUCH better once you level up and can actually contribute to more than 1 fight per rest.

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

In Legacy of Bhaal mode, even warriors are weak at the beginning and are easily slain by a single hit. A group of archers (hobgoblins, bandits, kobold commandos) is still highly dangerous
even some levels later. I had chosen to begin with no mage and no cleric as to dual-class Imoen and the cleric some levels later. There are some notes about about it in the gameplay topics forum. It almost made me restart, but once I had access to the first low-level spells, it changed much.

Originally posted by AncientToaster:

Yeah and you can use them 2 times and then have to rest.

That's a common complaint also from players of other games. Have seen it much more often about Pillars of Eternity (where the wizard would quickly become completely over-powered killers if not facing artificial constraints). Spell casting limits and resting are trade-offs for game balancing reasons. It has been discussed many times before for these AD&D based games. There are many things that come to mind, which any player would do differently in an 18 years old game, and yet the game and the rules is what others have developed (including all the balancing). I can accept that.

[Bowerick]

Yeah, as the other said: Thats D&D. I started a pnp-campaign recently and you might die on lvl 1-3 from basically one messed up round. And tbh I lost one guy on the 2nd random encounter against *ghasp* some mighty kobolds.

[Skarp Hulduson]

FEAR the kobold! Yip yip yip yip yip!

[Silvaren]

Trial of Iron from Pillars of Eternity or Ironman from The Temple of Elemental Evil or even "hardcore" characters in Diablo 2 & 3 are good game mechanics which counter save scumming.
Obsidian in Pillas of Eternity blocked buffs outside combat and they bring limits to resting mechanics, farming xp from mobs, kiting and even more. The goal was simple - to counter metagaming.
It's possible to rest after any combat in Baldur's Gate - heal up, memorise spells. Knowledge about the game allow players to prepeare for any battle ahead. Like in Underdark in BG II, before the bridge to Ust Natha - there is an ambush. Those who know the game will just hold for a moment, throw useful buffs, drink potions or even set up Skull Trap or Delayed Fireball or any other spell. Baldur's Gate is hard for new players and easy for veterans who complited entire game many times. Then it can be easy or it can be hard - if you want. Eg. you can continue playthrough after permadeath of party members. I know people who never reload save made before companions die. They just bring another char to the party in empty slot.

I think it's entire D&D theme. You can focus on powergaming (especially in D&D 3.0/3.5) or you can focus on roleplay aspect.

[Von Faustien]

Originally posted by Silvaren:

Trial of Iron from Pillars of Eternity or Ironman from The Temple of Elemental Evil or even "hardcore" characters in Diablo 2 & 3 are good game mechanics which counter save scumming.
Obsidian in Pillas of Eternity blocked buffs outside combat and they bring limits to resting mechanics, farming xp from mobs, kiting and even more. The goal was simple - to counter metagaming.
It's possible to rest after any combat in Baldur's Gate - heal up, memorise spells. Knowledge about the game allow players to prepeare for any battle ahead. Like in Underdark in BG II, before the bridge to Ust Natha - there is an ambush. Those who know the game will just hold for a moment, throw useful buffs, drink potions or even set up Skull Trap or Delayed Fireball or any other spell. Baldur's Gate is hard for new players and easy for veterans who complited entire game many times. Then it can be easy or it can be hard - if you want. Eg. you can continue playthrough after permadeath of party members. I know people who never reload save made before companions die. They just bring another char to the party in empty slot.

I think it's entire D&D theme. You can focus on powergaming (especially in D&D 3.0/3.5) or you can focus on roleplay aspect.

ah rest untill healed the true bane of crpgs.

seriously if you wanted too you brake the last level of fallout 2 by killing a few troops runing to the prior area resting and repeating untill your poorly built character deals death a thoisand cuts to the elite enclave troops over the corse of 9 in game months. granted the new fallout let you beat death claws by hiding in doorways they dont fit in so it hasnt really got better.

[Coldhands]

Originally posted by AncientToaster:

Early game is such a ♥♥♥♥ing chore with all the encounters that can go so horribly bad for you so quickly.

At least it gets better once you get some levels, but early game is garbage.

Yeah, that's AD&D for you. It's an archaic rule set and this is a pretty old video game. There's a reason every newer version of D&D took steps to make characters more fun to play at low levels.

[Biggus Dickus]

Originally posted by jrr101:

ah rest untill healed the true bane of crpgs.

seriously if you wanted too you brake the last level of fallout 2 by killing a few troops runing to the prior area resting and repeating untill your poorly built character deals death a thoisand cuts to the elite enclave troops over the corse of 9 in game months. granted the new fallout let you beat death claws by hiding in doorways they dont fit in so it hasnt really got better.

War never changes, I guess.

[Skarp Hulduson]

to, +could?, break , running, until, +by, course, in-game ...

[Skarp Hulduson]

I'm sorry, I usually resist being a spelling/grammar nazi, but that was rather extreme.