Hoping for urban combat and infantry improvements in Red Dragon.

[BorisS1990]

I was always kinda disappointed in the infantry and urban combat in the Wargame series. Both seemed largely ignored.
Infantry is useless in most cases as it gets cut to shreds by tanks and pretty much anything else. Even if garrisoned in buildings and woods they don't seem to get much of a defense boost. As long as the tanks are smart enough to stay out of the infantry's AT rocket range, the infantry is dead. And there isn't enough forest or city on most maps to make it worthwhile. Your infantry is still exposed most of the time out in the open while running from one clump of woods to another. Which brings me to another point;

Urban combat. None of the maps really have any cities. Certainly not ones worth fighting for. Most are small towns with nothing of value in them. If an enemy garrisons them, you're better off just going around and leaving a small detachment to keep an eye on the place than you are actually trying to clear it. I mean, why are all the control zones in Wargame always placed in some field in the middle of nowhere. You'd think in real life most combat would be focused on controlling urban centers.

I would love to see atleast some maps in Red Dragon that include a LARGE city that occupies most of the map's area with the control zones INSIDE the city. Forcing players to actually enter the city and fight for it. Perhaps many small, closely packed control zones all over the city. That would help create a sort of gritty, block by block, building by building meat grinder to hold control of the whole city. Also it would give the infantry some actual purpose in the game since they would now be in their natural habitat. Seeing as Red Dragon will be set in Asia, home of some of the largest urban centers, it only makes sense.

Maybe to make city fighting even more frantic, create sewer and subway systems. To keep it simple they will simply act like portals throughout the city. Entrances and manholes spread throughout the city. Infantry enters in one, and some seconds later exits in a completely different one. With engineers having the ability to demolish them. Infantry would be invulnerable and cannot be attacked while underground. But if Eugen is feeling ambitious, they could model the underground passageways and give you real-time control of the troops underground as a separate layer of the map. This would give infantry the very usefull ability to pretty much pop up anywhere int he city, putting more emphasis on having to control EVERY part of the city instead of just creating a front line.

So let's hope infantry and urban areas get some lovin this time around.

[Richardguy]

If you're talking about Ragnarok then you have a point; as well as most other maps, there is little point in clearing a place out unless he's got long range AT with him (then it might be a problem...)

But I have to disagree with something. Infantry, when well garrisoned, are well-nigh impossible to kill outright (it takes serious time.) If you don't believe me, go in the singleplayer skrimish and garrison a platoon of infantry in buildings, and line up every rocket artillery vehicle you have to fire on them. It's actually surprising.

[MAC]

Learn to use infantry properly, they are an amazing asset in urban defense.

[orcbuster]

Infantry are boss. try it on copenhagen, uppsala and ålesund and you will get results.

[Cullen's Hound]

The game engine isn't really designed for it. This game is focused on meeting engagements between mechanized forces. Open fields with small towns is the ideal terrian for this type of combat, Stalingrad is what happens when you try to take these types of forces into cities. There are no real foot infantry units, the lowest mobility are in trucks. Likewise there are no towed guns in this game as well as no digging in and deployable fortrifications. All those would have to be implemented before real urban combat is something more then a feedfest.

[Aethel]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Great Caesar's Ghost:

The game engine isn't really designed for it. This game is focused on meeting engagements between mechanized forces. Open fields with small towns is the ideal terrian for this type of combat, Stalingrad is what happens when you try to take these types of forces into cities. There are no real foot infantry units, the lowest mobility are in trucks. Likewise there are no towed guns in this game as well as no digging in and deployable fortrifications. All those would have to be implemented before real urban combat is something more then a feedfest.

You and Boris are so wrong. I played the first episode of wargame (european escalation) and their is two thing I have to say. First: they greatly improved their infantry management system in wargame airland battle.
Second: there are plenty of guides out there to teach you how to use infantry. in my opinion they are the most usefull units int the game. Any player with more than 5 hours on record will agree with me. Even if they don't kill anything during the match, they deny this particular area to ANY unit in the game. try to use any amount of arty and bombers, they will survive and resuply easly. They are also the safestway to take forests and other cities. I have 138h on record for this game and I have seen infantry take down waves of tanks sent at them. Also, half of the zones in this games have cities in them, or at least buildings.

So before you start making unfounded criticism, check your facts. There are countless atgm equipped infnatry units in this game that have at least 2000m of range. So don't say that Any player with more than 5 hours on record will agree with me.

PS:
- I would like to know how much hours you have on record, just to check if you actually know what you are talking about.
- I am french so please have the patience to read my text full of mistakes.

[Aethel]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Great Caesar's Ghost:

The game engine isn't really designed for it. This game is focused on meeting engagements between mechanized forces. Open fields with small towns is the ideal terrian for this type of combat, Stalingrad is what happens when you try to take these types of forces into cities. There are no real foot infantry units, the lowest mobility are in trucks. Likewise there are no towed guns in this game as well as no digging in and deployable fortrifications. All those would have to be implemented before real urban combat is something more then a feedfest.

Remember its modern warfare. Any king of fortification, trenches, sandbags, etc... gets wiped out by artillery and mortars. These days, defenses are spread out and large groups of units usually get killed. If you want to win in this game, I recommend squads of 2 tanks max. Im not saying that number is death: im saying that you could have 10 squads of 2 tanks. Just keep them away from each other. Makes pinpointing key targets for arty a pain in the ass for your opponent

[F-22]

a 60 man stack of reservists in a town will take an age to dislodge, and isn't worth bombing because the entire stack is only 20 points, they may die, but at least they're cheap and they die slowly.

Infantry are more for delaying and denying areas.

[DR COSMO KRAMER PROCTOLOGY]

I wish that infantry were more "visually interesting" and fun to use. I want to see them interact more with their environment, like vaulting over obstacles, taking cover, and repelling down helicopters. It seems like they were ignored in that aspect.

[🎢🧀🛵🌙🐍🍤🕹]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Dr. Cosmo Kramer, Proctology:

I wish that infantry were more "visually interesting" and fun to use. I want to see them interact more with their environment, like vaulting over obstacles, taking cover, and repelling down helicopters. It seems like they were ignored in that aspect.

I wish the environment were more interactive with everything. Possibly some more work could be put into the destructability of the environments while making the game playable on lower end computers by having extra animations a graphical option?

[Cullen's Hound]

Oprindeligt skrevet af mxcazes:

You and Boris are so wrong. I played the first episode of wargame (european escalation) and their is two thing I have to say. First: they greatly improved their infantry management system in wargame airland battle.
Second: there are plenty of guides out there to teach you how to use infantry. in my opinion they are the most usefull units int the game. Any player with more than 5 hours on record will agree with me. Even if they don't kill anything during the match, they deny this particular area to ANY unit in the game. try to use any amount of arty and bombers, they will survive and resuply easly. They are also the safestway to take forests and other cities. I have 138h on record for this game and I have seen infantry take down waves of tanks sent at them. Also, half of the zones in this games have cities in them, or at least buildings.

So before you start making unfounded criticism, check your facts. There are countless atgm equipped infnatry units in this game that have at least 2000m of range. So don't say that Any player with more than 5 hours on record will agree with me.

PS:
- I would like to know how much hours you have on record, just to check if you actually know what you are talking about.
- I am french so please have the patience to read my text full of mistakes.

I don't really know what you are talking about, Boris says he wants real cities and urban warfare to which I respond that the game engine doesn't seem to support the mechanics needed for real siege warfare, ie infantry that doesn't stand around in circles, entrenchments, and towed equipment. I currently have 250 hours in the game not that I see how that matters. Your English seems excellent, it's your comprehension that seems flawed

Oprindeligt skrevet af mxcazes:

Remember its modern warfare. Any king of fortification, trenches, sandbags, etc... gets wiped out by artillery and mortars. These days, defenses are spread out and large groups of units usually get killed. If you want to win in this game, I recommend squads of 2 tanks max. Im not saying that number is death: im saying that you could have 10 squads of 2 tanks. Just keep them away from each other. Makes pinpointing key targets for arty a pain in the ass for your opponent

This is not true, artillery has a hard time destroying anything that is entrenched. This is actually fairly well represented in the game where infantry in buildings rarely dies to artillery, infantry in woods is hard to kill even if you can see them, and infantry in the open with no concealment is dead. Just for example, the Iran Iraq war the last modern war between two fairly well matched Nations, was mostly a World War One style trench war. Even during the Coalition War against Iraq we didn't destroy entrenchments with artillery, we engaged them from the front with cover fire and used combat bulldozers to bury them. If the Iraqis had had anything comparable to the coalition equipment, or better defense in depth, we would have had a very hard time against their trenches.