Need community input on bots

[Shir]

I don't like playing with bots and feel they are actually the main problem with getting games populated. I would like to propose that we eliminate them completely when we have 3 vs 3 in all maps and maybe 4 vs 4 in larger maps like gate and oilfield. I already expressed my strong disapproval of use of bots to populate games but my opinion was ignored unless I could prove that this is the same sentiment in the ND community. We need as many people voicing their opinions about this otherwise more bots (even in populated games) are here to stay. I certainly don't want that and hope most of you do not either. So guys, this is your chance please speak up and post below.

[Vertex]

The team balancer is now able to keep teams even while bots are enabled. Due to a high level of abstraction, bots have no negative impacts on balance after eight players on a team. And during the time of three to eight players a partial resolution is availible to prevent stacking.

These maps[github.com] are also running reduced bot counts to properly scale to their size.
Plugin source code[github.com] is available here. Contributions or suggestions are welcome!

How Bot Filling Works

Teams are filled with a set maxium number of bots based on the map. They disable at a set number of map-based players on teams; which is always earlier than their total count.

Recently, the 'disable at player count' for bots was changed from a static 4v4 to a higher dynamic value on every single map except for broken silo. (where it was decreased)

Bot Adjustments Six Hours Ago

• Added new 'bot disable at player count' algorithm for different maps!
  
  • 3v3 for Silo becuase bots get stuck in Consort's spawns.
    
  • 8v8 for extremely large maps: Gate, Downtown and Oilfield.
    
  • 6v6 for the remainder of maps in rotations not listed above.

Results of These Changes

• Larger maps are now more playable with lower player counts. Players are no longer leaving when they come on with lower player counts.
  
  
• Redstone is seeding more effectively as a direct result of these changes. This means more server population by attributing to a resolution of the lower player count conflict.
  
  
• Lower player count games are more action packed. Bots slow down the pace of the game, by helping to repell seigers and capture resources. (reducing quick 'stomp' games)
  
  
• Games are more rookie friendly becuase there is a lower emphasis on any "one person". And bots are relatively easy to kill. These changes 'could' bring more players to the game.

[yomp]

I agree with Amir , In my opinion these changes should either be reverted to previous settings or become something similar to what Amir suggests , like a 3vs3 and a 4vs4 players in bigger maps.

[yomp]

Or When there are 3 or 4 people on each team , there could be a vote to "kick" the bots , if thats possible.

[Vertex]

What are the negatives of running bots at 6v6 or 8v8? Give me a list of problems and i'll see if they can be fixed. Multiple problems with bots have already been resolved.

Running bots this high as a lot of benefits. There needs to be really good reasons to slash them back. For instance, bots getting stuck in spawns was justification for 3v3 on Silo.

[yomp]

I think u should get the opinion of players before making big changes like this , because lots of people have expressed their negative opinion about this change.

[Vertex]

Do you know why players like yourself do not like this change? I haven't been given very much constructive feedback to work with. "Revert it now, trust me change is horrible" isn't convicing.

Multiple issues with bots have been tackled. If there's more, throw them at me. There's has to be a reason why people dislike them, otherwise they would be simply praising the listed benefits.

At one point people wouldn't even populate the server becuase bots weren't blasting. And now they're turning around and saying they're horrible? What gives? Why the change of heart?

Issues Tackled with Bots from Feedback

• Team balance: They no longer impact team balance after eight players. (4v4)
  
  
• Map Congestion: These maps[github.com] are running less bots for this reason.
  
  
• Less Bot Matches: 7v7 was changed to 6v6 and 8v8 to reduce bot matches. Overall, 6v6 will happen more often by atleast a ratio 2:1; thus reducing overall bot matches.
  
  
• Aimbot: Reaction times were increased from 300ms to 500ms.
  
  
• Spawn glitches: Silo was sanctioned and reduced to 3v3 becuase they get stuck.

[ĐΔʁҜ ⋨ѻטⱠ]

totally agreed with amir !!

[Vertex]

Originally posted by ĐΔʁҜ §0uL:

totally agreed with amir !!

Why? What's bad about more bots?

[ĐΔʁҜ ⋨ѻטⱠ]

We hate bots!!!
http://steamcommunity.com/app/17710/discussions/0/133258092249268816/

[Vertex]

Originally posted by ĐΔʁҜ §0uL:

We hate bots!!!
http://steamcommunity.com/app/17710/discussions/0/133258092249268816/

It's a double edged sword becuase people don't like it when the server is empty ether. Would you mind telling why you hate bots, to ensure everything possible is done to improve them?

I can't read your mind, but you did mention before: they were always killing you while trying to destory buildings. A lot has been done since then to tackle this issue.

[Equinox]

Personally, I do not interfere with these changes.Some sense in them have.BUT man it's a habit.He doesn't like to change to be flexible.These innovations irritate the veterans.I think you need to consider their opinion.If they don't want to let it remain as it was.Save players is also valuable as finding new ones.

[Equinox]

Originally posted by ᵡᴳḽᴰ::Vertex:

Originally posted by ĐΔʁҜ §0uL:

We hate bots!!!
http://steamcommunity.com/app/17710/discussions/0/133258092249268816/

I can't read your mind, but you did mention before: they were always killing you while trying to destory buildings. A lot has been done since then to tackle this issue.

Bots are stupid and often useless.They run past resources and do not kill enemies when they see them.But personally to me it does not interfere with play.)

[Vertex]

I have a really good moto for change. If it causes 1 person to leave and 2 new people regularly play the game, i'll go for it. An obessive amount of feedback has been incorporated to improve bots. With a lot of flexibility for the best possible controls on gameplay. And there's still room for more improvements, if veterans would like to explain in more detail what's wrong here.

I think that new players are most oppressed and irritated toward how this game works. So if something is slightly disliked by veterans and helps rookies a lot, it's definately a good change.

[Equinox]

For Vertex:If the changes annoy experienced players they can irritate and beginners.Leaving veteran will not return and the probability that a newcomer will become a regular player not large.Too many interesting games are in Steam.Regularly play only fans of the game.Their opinion should be respected.
For Veterans:This game is well balanced.A little changes not make it better or worse but just a little not familiar and therefore uncomfortable.If these changes could be originally in the game by default and no one would pay attention to it.That's no reason to leave the game.Just play and have fun.

[Vertex]

I found a new way to resolve a couple issues on Oasis and Coast by reducing their total bot quotas by eight. All commonly played maps except for Clocktower have bot reductions now. This solution is the best of both worlds becuase less bots won't impact seeding/large maps.