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Madness vs Machines Feedback Thread
Madness vs Machines is our third MvM contest following Canteen Crasher. It was a lot of work to build the campaign and get it running, so we want to hear what you think about our event!

These contests and events are for the MvM community, so we want to know what we did right, what we did wrong, and how we can improve for future events. Feel free to comment on anything you want!

Here are specific questions we would like everyone to answer:
  1. Which server region(s) did you primarily play on? How was the server performance?
  2. How was your overall feeling regarding the community contract system?
  3. Which missions did you find too hard? Too easy? On-point? (Base your answer on the mission's specified difficulty level.)

Here are general food-for-thought feedback questions. Feel free to pick which ones to answer:
  • What did you like about Madness vs Machines?
  • What didn't you like? How can we make it better?
  • What did we do in Madness vs Machines that we should keep doing for future contests?
  • What did we do in Madness vs Machines that we shouldn't do again for future contests?
  • What didn't we do in Madness vs Machines that we should do for future contests?
  • If there are things you can change in Madness vs Machines, what would you change?

Feel free to leave any other comments and feedback. Your feedback can pertain to either the contest, the campaign, or both.

Thanks in advance for taking the time to let us know what you think!
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Showing 1-10 of 10 comments
Grave Oct 4 @ 8:14am 
no gas passer is dumb, it is a part of the game

the community contracts are annoying because it will take forever to get the medals

the restriction for expert mode makes no sense because most players on expert are terrible at the game anyway
Last edited by Grave; Oct 7 @ 10:19am
aerial stupidity is the best
My response to your feedback.

Website:

#1 & #3: We're not sure if the medieval highlighting or the incomplete mission highlighting is a major issue, but we'll keep thinking about it. The major concern we have is we don't want the server list to become a noisy cesspool which is what your suggestions may turn it into. (It's already a bit messy.)

#2: The ping sorting is necessary since, while you may not care about ping, most players do. We also have it set to display partially filled servers at the top so they can get quick replacements.

If we had an option for every setting, we would need to put like 10 radiobuttons on the list and write code for each option, only for most people to not use them anyway (they will use the default order, which is why we try to make the default good).

Your idea is fantastic in principle, but we have way too many things to do and too little time to do them. This is one of those things we'll have to give a miss as we have endless bigger fish to fry.

Server:

The easy fix to your problem is for me to kill revive marker entities during setup, which means medics can't revive players during setup. I think that should address your concern without being a major hassle to implement.

Map & Missions:

Downpour is a known FPS tanker, likely due to the million particles and the rain around it. If you can't handle the map, don't play it. You don't need to play every mission in the campaign to get all the medals. Alternatively set your settings to minimum when playing that map, and/or try disabling map particle effects.

Send your praise/criticism for the missions to the judging staff and the creators (see wall of fame). You should put your criticism of their work on their respect submission threads in the MM contest submissions forum, since most of them don't look in here for feedback.

Also, I suggest you make a new feedback post each time instead of updating this one, as this post is becoming incredibly long as it is.

Thanks for your feedback,
Hydrogen (creator/owner)

Well, it's a bit too early to start writing this, I'll leave some suggestions I thought regarding the Website, and I'll be sure to update this post again in the future with more feedback on the campaign as a whole, as well replying to the questions.

10/04/2019

Website

No. 1: On the Server List, completed Missions (if the player completed all waves of a mission) should be marked in green. This makes it easier for players to know which missions they have completed without having to check the breakdown every time.

Mock-up 1: https://i.imgur.com/PvKzTpm.png

No. 2: Please add an option that disables the server "auto-filtering". Every time when I refresh the server list page, I see a server that'd like to join, and then a few seconds later, the server I'm about to click to join goes somewhere else.

I know that the the filtering is supposed to follow ping (lowest ping at highest, highest ping at lowest), I don't know for everyone else, but I join a server regardless of the ping, and the filtering always makes it a hassle to join a server.

No. 3: Medieval missions should have an icon next to the mission name, showing that it's medieval-only. Possibly a shield with a sword on the back.

I check a lot of the Team Comp (thanks for adding my suggestion, by the way), and I'm always puzzled when I see a Team Comp that has multiple classes at once. Medieval maps usually go for 2 Demoknights or 2 Snipers or even 2 Medics. The icon would make it easier why that team comp is there on the server, and it would probably help people who isn't aware that the mission in specific is actually medieval.

At the moment, I can see a lot of people not wanting to join servers like these because of the "off"-composition. The icon would help let people know that the reason of the "off"-Team Comp is just because it's a medieval map.

Server

No. 1: I've thought of this suggestion a long time ago, but I was always "unsure" because it would "devoid" from the nature of MVM (e.g.: It would change something not available in Valve servers, for instance). However, after still seeing players doing this mistake over and over again, I guess a "workaround" could be implemented.

Considering that there has been changes on this campaign that "removed/added features", such as the removal of the Gas Passer, I guess this wouldn't be too much of a problem to request.

What do I mean? Well, majority of the players does not know that when you revive a teammate, the harder it gets after each successful revive. This is noticeably bad when a teammates keeping killing themselves "for fun", and the Medic keeps reviving them. Just a note, revives on Setup will count even for the upcoming wave.

I haven't tried Expert yet, but I've seen cases in CC where there was a guy who was revived so many times during Setup that the Medic was having a hard time reviving him in the actual wave, and it was on a Advanced mission.

My suggestion is adding instant respawn during Setup time. This will fix this problem because the Medic won't have time to revive teammates that are dying on setup. No revives means no "penalty" for each successful revive.

I fear this happening on Expert, and people being clueless why their revives are taking so long. I see people dying on setup for fun almost every game I play. Knowing this myself, I don't revive players doing that on Setup, but almost every other Medic will revive it anyway.

In a perfect world, Valve could make a patch where revivals during Setup doesn't count for the upcoming wave (in technical details, the "penalty" resets when a wave starts). But until then, this could be considered to be added as a feature/server mechanic.

Maps and Missions

Goldpit (Goldrush) - I don't know about this map. At first glance, it really looks like a TF2 map for me, but I thought it was kinda confusing to navigate, the "A" point is in a very unusual spot.

As for the mission, I thought Goldrush was too easy. There were times that we had only 5 teammates (after one quit), another time where our Medic was AFK, and despite all of that, we still managed to complete the waves with no problem at all.

It seems that the points are captured, but robots still can spawn on A despite they capturing B. I don't know if that was intentional, but in my opinion, the map becomes much easier with each gate spawning different robots (and not all robots in just one gate).

If nothing is changed, I think it would fit better as an Intermediate mission.

Kelly (Homestead Happenings) - This is now the inverse of Goldrush, the Advanced mission was so hard, that I think it should be an Expert mission. Our team managed to get after many wave failures, and we were this close in losing by the time "bomb".

It's a mission that really required all teammates working and cooperating to achieve victory. Much more than the usual Advanced missions.

Though, I'll say that I think the reason we lost so much is that we had a Scout on last wave, and it wasn't really working out. After he changed to Engineer (and I went Pyro after I tried Engi couple of times), we got it. But no offense for what he chose. It's just that I think Scout isn't the best pick for the last wave, only if dealing with Giants (so they can mark 'n milk).

10/08/2019

Downpour

I have played most maps, but I don't think any map so far is as laggy as Downpour. I know my computer isn't the best, but it runs all the other maps just fine, but Downpour seems to have some frame issues, especially at the main area, where robots spawn. And I'm not really sure what the lag is coming from, the map is pretty basic, so it shouldn't lag. Not even Teien, a very complex map, had much of this issue.

My only problem on Teien has been only when you come off the spawn, on the big shrine gate, but for the rest of the map, it runs pretty fine.

On Downpour, it seems that the pools of water is causing the frame drops, as the areas that I can notice the slowdowns usually have those pools.
Last edited by Zeugziumy; Oct 9 @ 10:25am
botrot Oct 4 @ 8:49pm 
Originally posted by Zeugziumy:
Maps and Missions

Goldpit (Goldrush) -

It seems that the points are captured, but robots still can spawn on A despite they capturing B. I don't know if that was intentional, but in my opinion, the map becomes much easier with each gate spawning different robots (and not all robots in just one gate).


That is actually intended. Goldpit is a different take on MvM gate mechanics; basically a captured gate means an additional spawn point for robots rather than moving it. If all 2 gates are captured, it would mean 3 spawn points total, which makes it easy for the robots to surround the human team from multiple directions unless they are at the area near the hatch.
My response to your feedback (Part 2).

We can’t change the stars system at this point. It’s built too deep in the core logic and in the most fragile parts of the code base. This is something we could have done if you mentioned it during our closed beta when significant code changes were still on the table (it’s not anymore).

A bonus multiplier for the top contributors would be messy to implement and essentially locks the bonus to only a top few players who contributed the most. I want rankings be purely cosmetic and not have elements similar to “pay2win." We will not associate ranks with anything that affects player progression.

For the exorcism effect, we haven’t gotten complaints about it. If it bothers you too much, I recommend you hide it with a client mod. We do not distribute client mods since we don’t want to distribute files that would affect players’ games outside of our servers. Players blindly install our asset pack into their computers; there’s a high level of trust people put in our downloads and we do not take that lightly.

(On that note, the committee also decided not to fix the revive marker issue as they think the fix will cause more harm than good and that many people don’t see it as a problem worth fixing.)

EDIT (10/19/2019): We made the change to the medals page to display your total tour points instead of capping off at 100. We haven't merged it upstream yet but we'll get to that eventually.

We planned to do a Halloween tour but because of the medals ban we dropped that idea. We considered building it into MM (like we did with CC) but with 83 missions (as of now) and the judging staff needing a serious vacation from admin duties, we decided not to do anything for Halloween this year. Maybe next year we will try to do one depending on Valve’s medals situation.

Regarding mission creativity, that is something you would have to take up to the judging staff. If you think it’s important you can petition that they make that a higher importance ticket item when they evaluate the next contest. Note that, however, demanding creativity is rather ill-defined and even in non-mvm contests it is not an easy thing to mandate.

You should send your praise for Choir of Robots to its submission thread where the creator can see it. Like I said earlier, this is (ironically?) not the appropriate place for comments on the individual submissions since their creators will not read this thread.

Our next event will take a completely different twist in MvM. I am not sure if you will like it or not. If you are interested in being part of the closed alpha testing team and want to give feedback while it’s early in development (while it's more open to changes), you can join our steam group chat. (The discord is for generic community matters so don't go there if you only want to subscribe to campaign-related stuff.)

- Hydrogen


Well, I'm making a new post as requested by Hydrogen, so here it goes (I'm also moving what I put it there to here instead, so).

I also already read your response and I appreciate it, I'll be sure to post on the Submissions topic next time, but these should only be the only two missions I had to comment on, I'll later post them in their respective threads.

I'm posting a few other things that I wrote after some "events" (one of them that I completed all Intermediate missions, I'll do the same after beating all Advanced then Expert). I'll be sure to reply to your questions from the original post when I'm finished with all missions, too.

10/09/2019

Intermediate missions

So, I just finished all Intermediate missions, and now I can finally say that those were great. They weren't too easy, neither too difficult, they were perfectly in between, much better than how it went on CC (where it sometimes felt like a Normal mission).

All of them proved to be a small challenge, and each one stood out uniquely. Most (if not all) of these could be completed without a "meta" composition, but still required proper teamwork to beat them.

Contracts

Considering that we, as a community, just got the first contract done, I think I'll post my thoughts on contracts for this Campaign.

Firstly, I really like the idea of universal contracts, I think it's much better everyone's progress counts to one single contract, than separately as it was the case in CC. There was an issue on CC that people would pick classes to do their contracts without realizing it could make the wave harder by not picking the most ideal class, which would result sometimes in classes being picked twice, and such.

Though, the universal contracts feels like it requires a long amount of work to get them. I wouldn't mind this if we could obtain more stars per contract. Let me explain, I think each contract could earn 3 stars, one for reaching 33%, another for 66% and another for 100%, and increase the total amount of stars needed for the last badge. I think that "earning more" would feel like we are contributing more to the contracts than how it's just now, which is just one star for completing it 100%.

I also wish that some contracts weren't too "niche" (though, they are way less niche than CC for sure), there's several contracts that I'll never even contribute because it's not my playstyle (especially ones that requires usage of Canteens, I almost never use those). In some way, this is okay, and I'm happy that people doesn't have to contribute in any form to get it completed.

I think a solution to this would add bonus multiplier for contracts someone does the most. For example, when I play Soldier, I always use the Buff Banner, considering I did a lot of work towards that contract, I could receive a x1.1 bonus for having it contributed a lot. Perhaps x1.2 after contributing it even more, and so on. As Heavy, I always equip my resistances first, so I contribute a lot for the "Mitigate Resistances" contract, but not so much for the others, that way, the multiplier could work, especially how slow the contract has been progressing for that one.

The Accolades are fine, but I honestly think they are "too hidden" on the website, only appearing as a link on the home page. I think it'd look great if Accolades could also appear on the Medals tab (apparently, they do, but there's no distinctive difference from the contracts, make them in another color or something, so they would feel more "special" to earn them, you know).

Halloween Mode

Well, what I'm about to say is something that is, at the moment, unavoidable because of the actual Halloween Event happening by Valve, but it'll soon be a problem after Halloween ends.

I'm all for Halloween Cosmetics and other Halloween stuff being enabled on the server. There's just one problem with this, and it's something I've already experienced a couple of times during the campaign.

I'm talking about the Exorcism Halloween Spell, that makes the job of collecting money as a Scout much harder because the ghost particle effects that appear is way too similar in animation, color and size.

There were about three times (and the three times I went Scout) that I had to deal with someone having this spell applied to their weapons, and it sure does make collecting money harder than it should.

I don't think that just one complain is enough reason to disable the entire Halloween Mode, but it's something that hinders the gameplay.

I guess the only thing I can do would be making a file-replacement (a mod) that removes the effects of Exorcism. I could sent to you guys, in case you'd like to share with the community for some reason.

I took this screenshot that shows the Exorcism ghosts appearing from the ground, I don't know if this is a recent bug or what, but it sure makes finding money harder: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1881203276

15/10/2019

A small request. Would be possible to show all available Tour Points someone has on their "Medals" page? Right now, it goes until 100 points, but I think it would be cool like Canteen Crasher did, let's say I have 120 tour points, the page could show 120/100.

Here's a mock up: https://i.imgur.com/pHCdbdv.png

Apparently, this already shows on the "Tour" page, but it would be nice if it was also on the Medals page.

18/10/2019

So I just "finished" the Advanced tour (finish as in, I saw everything on each mission, but I still need to beat "Choir of Robots" without losing at the very end, oh well). I liked the Advanced missions. But I have mixed feelings about it.

In one hand, I like how the MM missions were just like MVM missions made by Valve. On the other hand, I disliked that there weren't enough interesting ideas on here. Don't get me wrong, I loved the mission with the Tank that shoots stickies, the mission where Tanks fall from the sky, and the other mission where a Giant Demoman shoots Tanks (yes, I like Tanks), but in comparison to CC, I think MM did less.

I don't know if you guys will add Halloween maps/missions just like CC did, because my favorite maps on CC are the ones that were added in Halloween. Skullcove is my favorite mission of all potato.tf, because it's so much fun and replayable. I lost how many times I completed that mission with a diverse array of classes.

Speaking of "Choir of Robots", that's possibly my favorite mission here. I think I'm all for One Wave Missions, it seems. Choir of Robots was so much fun to play, regardless if I won or not.

I think, we should look into, as judges and map/mission creators, more maps with just one wave, because, for me, they are the best.

Maybe we are reaching some "limits" in terms of capabilities that missions can have. I saw a lot of potential when Memes vs. Machines was introduced, and I was hoping some ideas could be implemented here on MM.

I don't know if "custom stuff" was allowed on MM as it was on Memes, but I legitimately want to hear some classic TF2 noises (loved that mission that used the "Domination" sound, by the way), as well custom models. I remember a lot of Memes missions had a Demoman shooting classes in their Reference pose, I was hoping to see a proper use of that, while using a custom model. What if it's a grenade that when explodes, become stickies? Well, like I said, I ain't sure about the limits of these things, but it would be cool.

I'm yet to beat Expert, but I haven't decided if I'll be really playing those. After this reply, look for the next one because I'll be replying some of your requested question on the original post.
Last edited by Potato's MvM Server; 1 hour ago
We nerfed tour points further, but we do not want to nerf it anymore since we don't want the campaign to be a Payday 2-like grind. If the medals are too easy to get, that is fine, we do not gatekeep our medals like some other events may do.

Ok let me first say that i really like the event so far I think that the new contracts are a good idea and the new maps play very nicely.
But there is still one thing I don't like and that would be that you can reach 100 tour points way to fast i for example have only beat around 25 missions, and I am already done with the tour points and such don't feel the need to play any further.
The contracts don't help very much since they only require more time than actual skill.
To help against this I would lower the points per missions to 1.2.3 and give people who have complete all the missions a special medal to show that they have done everything.
Last edited by Potato's MvM Server; 13 hours ago
Thanks for your feedback. The stats pages are actually incomplete; there's another week of work I need to put into them. I just haven't had the time to get on it though.

1. I typically play NA (East Coast). Server performance has been pretty good since Canteen Crasher, and I can even play EU without too much trouble.
2. I really like how the community contract system has an individual, competitive aspect (Leaderboards), but the effort is pooled so that you can rely on others to pick up the slack for contracts that don't match your abilities and playstyle a.k.a. TEAMWORK.
3. No particular comments on mission difficulty thus far.

I have no real complaints thus far except that ONE medieval map was enough, so I will just emphasize what I liked. General comments:

  • When I first heard that the event was going to be cooperative, I thought that the contracts would be less interesting to the "Achievements" part of my brain than the Canteen Crasher contracts were, but I actually find the Community Progress/Individual Contribution Leaderboards combination to be quite satisfying
  • I'm glad that Expert Missions are now included. You can't really achieve a "Flow" state (look it up) in Advanced Mode unless your team is really bad, so the 3rd level of difficulty allows more people to find their niche. So far, I've played a little over half of the Expert missions, and they all seem to be reasonably-calibrated.
  • Gas Passer Gone = MvM is Fun Again!
  • I may have just gotten lucky, but I have yet to play on a single server with a Meta Scout. So far, everyone's been carrying their weight with DPS instead of ineffectively spamming redundant support weapons and bottom-scoring. Credit to the "Catch Me If You Can" contract...?
  • The threshold for playing queuing into Expert mode caused some inconvenience at first waiting for new players, but I suspect it's 100% worth it.
  • EDIT: I forgot to mention, I also find the UI on the website to be much better than last time. I really like being able to toggle between classes without needing to scroll, and having the Statistics page in addition to the Leaderboard/Completion pages.

Originally posted by Grave:
no gas passer is dumb, it is a part of the game

the community contracts are annoying because it will take forever to get the medals

the restriction for expert mode makes no sense because most players on expert are terrible at the game anyway

The Giant Soldiers going AFK in Wave 2 of Bavarian Botbash and nerfing the difficulty of the entire mission is "part of the game", too. That doesn't mean you don't fix it if you can.

Last edited by Potato's MvM Server; 12 hours ago
Originally posted by Mr. CAR_ #no_gas_mvm:
I may have just gotten lucky, but I have yet to play on a single server with a Meta Scout.
I've seen a handful of those, probably were focusing on other contracts instead
This has been fixed, thanks for bringing it to our attention! Next time file this as a bug report since this is more of a to-do thing and not so much a feedback thing.

I think you guys should update the instruction manual on the site, since the point system has been changed recently (or add updates in it), so it become easier fro us too see what has been changed.

my apologies if that already happened and i didnt see it
Last edited by Potato's MvM Server; 13 hours ago
My response to your feedback (Part 3)

Before you read this response, make sure to read the response I left for your previous (second) post.

I think the server problem you witnessed was just Source Engine being stupid. We were not able to reproduce any issues that were reported earlier. Do let us know if it continues to be a problem (which it doesn’t seem to be based on your response.)

On that note: The upgrades station bug you reported is confirmed to be a Valve issue as people experienced it outside our servers while we were in maintenance downtime last week.

Seeing that you’re from Brazil, keep an eye out for our South American servers next month, which should give you much better ping. South America is the most expensive region which is why we’re being conservative in opening a server there.

Your criticism about the bar being stuck is valid and is something I wish you brought up during the closed beta. Right now, the campaign is pretty much final and changing the critical logic will likely cause a summer crate update 2019 of medals along with tons of regressions. We tried to set the contracts so that they unlock on average once a day to help alleviate the “lack of progression” syndrome. We will continue to tweak contract requirements so that there’s some sense of progression.

The tank destruction contracts use the top-damage-dealer system you proposed. We contemplated doing this for giant robots too, but since this campaign is co-op we felt this is not a serious issue. Moreover, strange weapons increment giant kills in this same manner so we’d rather be consistent with that, just like we sort of were for the tank contract. (It’s also messy to implement a damage-based kill system due to technical reasons I’ll spare you.)

I proposed to the committee that we lower the gas passer’s explode on ignite damage to 150 but they shot it down and want it completely banned. I don’t forsee explode on ignite coming back anytime soon. Stunning robots with the gas passer is outside the scope of how much we can modify the game, and I’d rather not introduce foreign mechanics that are not found in the base game.

You would have to ask the judges why they decided to approve the meme wave. I haven’t played the campaign (despite being the creator/owner I don’t play my own MvM events, or even TF2 for that matter, since my free time is already punished with a giant to-do list) so I can’t comment on this matter.

Normal mode is disliked by the judges and by the creators. It requires creating braindead easy missions that are not fun to most people. If people can’t handle intermediate mode, they should not be playing on a community event; they are better served playing boot camp to learn the ropes of MvM. From my past experience, normal mode judging was a horrible experience because of how boring it is.

Regarding the server list, we will look into marking up servers that are playing a mission that you already have beaten 100%. We will also add “(Medieval)” below a map name for the medieval maps to better indicate them. We found ways to add them in without making the server list a cesspool.

As for the sorting request, like I said last time, it costs too much development time to implement and would be rarely used by anyone. We already have mild sorting by region and by difficulty (you can click on the flag or the difficulty to filter them, and it even changes the URL so you can bookmark the filter).

In addition, the server list is -NOT- a table but a bunch of div containers, which makes sorting not easy to implement. I don’t know why our website developer made it that way, but since he’s the expert professional I’ll have to trust that his implementation was the best one. I believe the defaulting sorting mechanism works best for most players and it doesn’t need changing.

Like I said in Part 2, if you want to be more involved in the process of making the next event (and put your two cents in when we can more easily implement them as opposed to it being an after-thought) you should subscribe to our steam group chat. I plan on releasing an alpha 1 of the next campaign sometime in November in that chatroom (after my exams and other obligations subside).

Thanks for your thoughtful posts, as always.

- Hydrogen

P.S. Despite the difficulty name, expert mode is not as hard as you may think. If you managed to do most of the advanced missions you should be capable of handling expert mode. The real question is if your teammates are also capable of handling expert.

As mentioned above on my second post, I'm now replying to the asked questions. I will be back with another post if I plan in beating the Expert mode, and by any case I complete them.

- Which server region(s) did you primarily play on? How was the server performance?
R: I primarily played on USA servers (any region), though I still played on a few EU servers. I didn't had much issues with the server, except two times. There was one time that I was having a bit of latency issues, but it quickly faded after a few minutes. The second time, though... was worse.

I have a screenshot where I died to a "spectator" robot (or I killed the "spectator" robot), which happens due to server lag.. and with that screenshot, I have the date that happened, which is... "10/08/2019 - 20:15:38 (GMT -3)" and "10/08/2019 - 20:20:40 (GMT -3)". Which by the time I took those, we can already say that more than 5 minutes the server was having lag issues. I made sure to check my Internet when this was happening, and that was not the case. My ping was just fine, and my "ping" tests over command prompt were all okay.

Regardless, the overall quality of the servers was good. I have not seen a single server crash, and I haven't been disconnected to any server either. I just had the problem I said above, but that was all really it.

Edit: Pardon me, as I forgot to mention which server I had the issue. Based on my screenshots, it was on Server #40, and if map and mission name matters, it was on Outlands (Rural Roadblock).


- How was your overall feeling regarding the community contract system?
R: I'm a bit mixed about it. Prior to the event's launch, I was really interested in the idea of community contracts, but after playing MM for a while, my overall felling is that it takes too much time to do so little.

As mentioned on my previous post, I think contracts should have multiple stars to obtain, and increase the amount of stars to get the badges. I think seeing your progress by consecutively seeing the Stars bar filling is more interesting than seeing the bar filling up very slowly sometimes when you Refresh the Medals page.

Though, this could be as a result of different badge rewarding. Previous events all had medals tied to tour points, while this one has the community contracts. Considering I beat all missions (except Expert mode), and I'm yet to obtain my second badge, I can see why I have the feeling that this is taking too long.

I don't think it's a bad system, I just think it could be implemented in a way where it's more appealing to see the bar actually increasing by the playerbase efforts, than the bar being stuck for days because we are still doing contracts.


- Which missions did you find too hard? Too easy? On-point? (Base your answer on the mission's specified difficulty level.)
R: Mentioned on my first post, but "Homestead Happenings" felt like an Expert mission. And "Goldrush" was too easy, should be an Intermediate mission, at least those are my thoughts. All the rest of the missions (not counting Expert), were on point. As previously mentioned, Intermediate missions felt like Intermediate missions and Advanced missions felt like Advanced missions.

- What did you like about Madness vs Machines?
R: Despite not playing it yet, the biggest addition was the Expert mode. I like how there's also a necessary amount of completed Advanced missions to play it as well. Expert missions give the opportunity for map/mission creators to create fun and challenging missions, more than they could on Advanced.

Despite its flaws mentioned above, I much prefer the community-based contracts than the single-user contracts that was done in CC. The biggest problem on CC were contracts that forced you to play in a style, and causing havoc to other players trying to complete the mission instead. The biggest issue, that was "Defeat X giant robot", was some-what fixed due to the new contracts system, but I still wish it counted as who killed the giant robot based on how much damage was done in total (again, not sure about limits, but that would be the ideal way to decide who actually killed the giant robot "more" than the other players of the team).


- What didn't you like? How can we make it better?
R: The long and "unnoticeable" progress that it takes to complete contracts, as explained above.

- What did we do in Madness vs Machines that we should keep doing for future contests?
R: The inclusion of Expert missions. And the removal of "Explode on Ignite" for Gas Passer, no more cheese! Though, I'd like to see a "rework" of "Explode on Ignite" to do another effect, as oppose to just blocking it. I feel Pyro isn't too strong on MVM and he (or she?) feels very niche in MVM, though I also think that the Gas Passer is absurdly broken too, so pick one or another.

Maybe instead of obliterating every robot due to 1 scratch of a bullet made by a very far away Scout, maybe stun the robots (using Sandman's old stun effect). It would be effective, as Pyro could approach the enemies while they are stunned, but it wouldn't be OP as Gas Passer is right now.

Though as mentioned several times in here, I'm not sure how the limitations of those things are in terms of the campaign as a whole, so.


- What did we do in Madness vs Machines that we shouldn't do again for future contests?
R: Wave 6/8 on Endothermic Espionage. Just one thing. Why? I legitimately kept that mission for one of the last due to having more waves than the rest, but then it was just 7 waves, because Wave 6 is just a joke. At one point, I thought it was funny, but that ain't Memes vs. Machines, so I don't know about you guys. Haha, I guess.

- What didn't we do in Madness vs Machines that we should do for future contests?
R: I think to compensate Expert missions, Normal/Novice missions could be added. Yeah, I know these are very easy missions, but they can still be creative. Use the creative freedom that we had on Memes (without going over the top with memes, that is), and create interesting new missions that are not either Intermediate, Advanced or Expert, but feels more like a "tour" of an idea, a concept for an idea to be made on missions. It'd be great for mission creators to take a look of other creator's ideas, and implement them for the next contest.

- If there are things you can change in Madness vs Machines, what would you change?
R: I think the things I wish to change is more regarding the Server List. As mentioned on my first post, it would be hella useful having a green filter for missions you've completed already (completed as in, all waves completed). I really had to check every time to know which mission I had beat it or not, and most of the times, I would prefer to join an empty server, and choose the map and mission myself and wait for people to come over.

Again with the servers, it would be cool if you could filter categories. Like, clicking on "Server" will filter each region, clicking on "Map/Mission" will sort in alphabetical order, clicking on "Difficulty" will sort by difficulty, clicking on "Wave" will sort by servers that are on the first or last wave, "Status" by their statuses, "Players" by the number of players, and finally "Ping".

An option to "show only servers where X class is not being played" would be cool too for players who just play one class. Say, a player marks that they want to only filter servers that doesn't have any Engineers, for instance. Usually double classes are rare in MVM, and usually on happens on the last wave (due to Scout no longer being a necessity).

Though the above would be nice paired with the addition of the "Medieval" icon I mentioned on my first post, so the same player would know that the server with no Engineer was also a Medieval mission, and it's rare to see Engineers playing on Medieval maps anyway.
Last edited by Potato's MvM Server; 1 hour ago
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