When will star citizen be finished?

[Mr Jt (Gog is king)]

Lets make a prediction since it’s the 10th anniversary already.
I say in 2030
What do you think?

[Menzagitat]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Darkie:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Menzagitat:

Star Citizen is a scam.

How so? can you put an actually argument on it?
Showcase your evidence.

Common sense.
But maybe scam is not necessarily the right word.
What word would describe better the actions of a leader who creates a cult, convincing followers to believe what he says, to support him and defend his beliefs fanatically?

[AdahnGorion]

Oprindeligt skrevet af ardiel:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Darkie:

So is selling a umbrella that is not water proof for over 1500 euro also a scam?
What about a digital box worth 2 euro, that gives you a skin ingame?
Is it a scam to sell burgers, that don´t look at advertised?

For Star Citizen to be a scam, it would have to be trying to decieve or defraud someone. In the case you have, it is simply putting out various offers, that people "clearly" can read about and "see" what is about and what they "obtain"

If it was a scam, it would have had to be deceptive in its nature. Like if I told you, that I had this special coin, that I got from my aunt (that I actually crafted myself to look like a special coin) and by purpose, tries to defraud you to buy it for a large amount (even if its not what I advertise it to be) then it is a scam.


By your argument, steam is having scam games on its site, actually a lot of them.
What would you call this?
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1200520/Ascent_FreeRoaming_VR_Experience/
or
https://store.steampowered.com/dlc/24010/Train_Simulator_Classic/#browse



In many ways, I see games with lootboxes more as fraud/scam, than a game like Star Citizen, mainly because in Star Citizen, I know what I get (I can see it, read about it and then make a choice) in ie. CSGO, I can´t make a choice on what to specifically get, since it will be random, basically I am gambling at the slotmachine (by your argument, that is also a scam)

Even if it isn't deceptive, it's predatory.

Pyramid schemes are not scams by your definition because they are telling the truth, but they are still illegal because they are predatory. They are designed to take advantage of the foolishness of people.

So now you went from it being a scam, to it being predatory.
The world predatory, is rather subjective in this case. Can you define it?
If we went by the argument, that it was "taking exploit of others" then again, I would disagree, because nothing Star Citizen does, is taking exploit of its customers.

By your argument, most games on steam is predatory.


You should just accept, that you don´t like Star Citizen, but that it does not harm anyone. It is one of those games, that will keep evolving and have various sections done. Those that pay large scale amounts of cash for various things can afford it... If you saw the stuff people with lots of cash spend it on, then you would be surprised.

People sometimes look odd at me as well, when I showcase them some of my Scotch, because that is not cheap either (I think I have a Scotch collection that is currently worth over 20k euro) and I am not even an avid collector.

My point here is.. I knew what I bought, the same could be said for games on steam or Star Citizen for that matter. As I said before, if you want to talk about exploit or deception, why do you never mention games with lootboxes? and what would you call those?

[AdahnGorion]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Menzagitat:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Darkie:

How so? can you put an actually argument on it?
Showcase your evidence.

Common sense.
But maybe scam is not necessarily the right word.
What word would describe better the actions of a leader who creates a cult, convincing followers to believe what he says, to support him and defend his beliefs fanatically?

I think we are down to subjectivity now.
There is nothing illigal going on or problematic with Star Citizen (yet)

Personally I dislike fast food, I also can´t understand why people can´t see the health problems involved, some might even say, that these places take "advantage/exploit" the poor or uneducated.. but instead.. I look at it from another perception..

Choice <--- if people have the option to make a choice and that the information they are given are current, then there is no exploit, fraudulent about it, no matter how I feel subjectively about it.

My point again. You are letting emotion govern before logic, in my opinion.

[Dallas S]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Darkie:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Menzagitat:

Common sense.
But maybe scam is not necessarily the right word.
What word would describe better the actions of a leader who creates a cult, convincing followers to believe what he says, to support him and defend his beliefs fanatically?

I think we are down to subjectivity now.
There is nothing illigal going on or problematic with Star Citizen (yet)

Personally I dislike fast food, I also can´t understand why people can´t see the health problems involved, some might even say, that these places take "advantage/exploit" the poor or uneducated.. but instead.. I look at it from another perception..

Choice <--- if people have the option to make a choice and that the information they are given are current, then there is no exploit, fraudulent about it, no matter how I feel subjectively about it.

My point again. You are letting emotion govern before logic, in my opinion.

How would you feel about a place selling water and ice at 10x the cost during a flood or some other emergency? It may not be considered a scam, but I guarantee you that a lot of people will be upset, and many countries consider that illegal.

People get very emotional about that, yet logic dictates that inflating price like that actually keeps people from hoarding and thus emptying shelves so other people can't buy it.

[Menzagitat]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Darkie:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Menzagitat:

Common sense.
But maybe scam is not necessarily the right word.
What word would describe better the actions of a leader who creates a cult, convincing followers to believe what he says, to support him and defend his beliefs fanatically?

I think we are down to subjectivity now.
There is nothing illigal going on or problematic with Star Citizen (yet)

Personally I dislike fast food, I also can´t understand why people can´t see the health problems involved, some might even say, that these places take "advantage/exploit" the poor or uneducated.. but instead.. I look at it from another perception..

Choice <--- if people have the option to make a choice and that the information they are given are current, then there is no exploit, fraudulent about it, no matter how I feel subjectively about it.

My point again. You are letting emotion govern before logic, in my opinion.

I have not payed anything and I do not wait for the game to be released.
Emotions are not involved in my conclusion.
I am also not in possesion of inside information about how they manipulate their supporters, and if that is legal or not also is not my concern :)
You defend them as a lawyer. Probably it is not first time.
Supporters who invested a lot of money will furiously defend their beliefs. Would be painful to admit they thrown away so much.

[AdahnGorion]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Psychotron69666:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Darkie:

I think we are down to subjectivity now.
There is nothing illigal going on or problematic with Star Citizen (yet)

Personally I dislike fast food, I also can´t understand why people can´t see the health problems involved, some might even say, that these places take "advantage/exploit" the poor or uneducated.. but instead.. I look at it from another perception..

Choice <--- if people have the option to make a choice and that the information they are given are current, then there is no exploit, fraudulent about it, no matter how I feel subjectively about it.

My point again. You are letting emotion govern before logic, in my opinion.

How would you feel about a place selling water and ice at 10x the cost during a flood or some other emergency? It may not be considered a scam, but I guarantee you that a lot of people will be upset, and many countries consider that illegal.

People get very emotional about that, yet logic dictates that inflating price like that actually keeps people from hoarding and thus emptying shelves so other people can't buy it.

The argument you pose is flawed because of various reasons.

1. You are comparing essential goods, with luxury goods.
2. False representation of the product we talk about (you don´t have to pay 50k to play SC ie)
3. You are using emotion to govern, rather than logic.

Using real life analogies is just never a good idea, when trying to construct an argument, because you will have an invalid argument to start with.

I fully understand your emotional subjective dislike of various things, but there is again nothing illigal about any of the games we have discussed, nor is there any fraudulent or exploitive nature about them either.

Again.. value is a matter of subjectivity, so is money for that sake.. The value something has, is the value you and others set it to be. The issue that can come, is when essential needs (goods) is exploited or if people try to fraud others (ie. knowlingly try to steal money, food, whatever, away from someone)

In this case with SC, it is not an essential goods, it is an luxury goods, that can be bought in many ways, there is a rather cheap way to play the game. You can see these "choices" in many other ways, again as I said.. you can buy an non waterproof umbrella for 10k if you wanted... But they are not claiming it to be waterproof (if they had, that would be the fraudulent part)

[AdahnGorion]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Menzagitat:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Darkie:

I think we are down to subjectivity now.
There is nothing illigal going on or problematic with Star Citizen (yet)

Personally I dislike fast food, I also can´t understand why people can´t see the health problems involved, some might even say, that these places take "advantage/exploit" the poor or uneducated.. but instead.. I look at it from another perception..

Choice <--- if people have the option to make a choice and that the information they are given are current, then there is no exploit, fraudulent about it, no matter how I feel subjectively about it.

My point again. You are letting emotion govern before logic, in my opinion.

I have not payed anything and I do not wait for the game to be released.
Emotions are not involved in my conclusion.
I am also not in possesion of inside information about how they manipulate their supporters, and if that is legal or not also is not my concern :)
You defend them as a lawyer. Probably it is not first time.
Supporters who invested a lot of money will furiously defend their beliefs. Would be painful to admit they thrown away so much.

I don´t own Star Citizen (I did try it for free in an alpha stage) I am also not defending anything, I just don´t like emotional & eternal truth statements. Instead I try to see valid arguments and logic behind our debate.

I agree, that it is not uncommon for people to defend their purchases, no matter if it is a mobile, a car, a game, a new pair of shoes... in most cases logic have been involved before buying them. In most cases choice has also been a part of it (if we accept that we have free will, but that is a long long long debate of its own) but if we do, then nobody force anyone to buy a luxury goods like SC. It is also not an essential.

[Dallas S]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Darkie:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Psychotron69666:

How would you feel about a place selling water and ice at 10x the cost during a flood or some other emergency? It may not be considered a scam, but I guarantee you that a lot of people will be upset, and many countries consider that illegal.

People get very emotional about that, yet logic dictates that inflating price like that actually keeps people from hoarding and thus emptying shelves so other people can't buy it.

The argument you pose is flawed because of various reasons.

1. You are comparing essential goods, with luxury goods.
2. False representation of the product we talk about (you don´t have to pay 50k to play SC ie)
3. You are using emotion to govern, rather than logic.

Using real life analogies is just never a good idea, when trying to construct an argument, because you will have an invalid argument to start with.

I fully understand your emotional subjective dislike of various things, but there is again nothing illigal about any of the games we have discussed, nor is there any fraudulent or exploitive nature about them either.

Again.. value is a matter of subjectivity, so is money for that sake.. The value something has, is the value you and others set it to be. The issue that can come, is when essential needs (goods) is exploited or if people try to fraud others (ie. knowlingly try to steal money, food, whatever, away from someone)

In this case with SC, it is not an essential goods, it is an luxury goods, that can be bought in many ways, there is a rather cheap way to play the game. You can see these "choices" in many other ways, again as I said.. you can buy an non waterproof umbrella for 10k if you wanted... But they are not claiming it to be waterproof (if they had, that would be the fraudulent part)

Bottled water isn't essential though even in an emergency, as people still have drinkable tap water (unless the emergency is something like ecoli infection), yet tons of people hoard bottled water for whatever reason.

At least that's my experience in the emergencies we have had, water from the tap is still drinkable yet people are outraged at a store for selling very expensive bottled water.

[skOsH♥]

I'll bet you could get it running at 100 fps at 4k with Nvidia RTX 9900Ti and a Ryzen 18 14500X 96-core

[AdahnGorion]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Psychotron69666:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Darkie:

The argument you pose is flawed because of various reasons.

1. You are comparing essential goods, with luxury goods.
2. False representation of the product we talk about (you don´t have to pay 50k to play SC ie)
3. You are using emotion to govern, rather than logic.

Using real life analogies is just never a good idea, when trying to construct an argument, because you will have an invalid argument to start with.

I fully understand your emotional subjective dislike of various things, but there is again nothing illigal about any of the games we have discussed, nor is there any fraudulent or exploitive nature about them either.

Again.. value is a matter of subjectivity, so is money for that sake.. The value something has, is the value you and others set it to be. The issue that can come, is when essential needs (goods) is exploited or if people try to fraud others (ie. knowlingly try to steal money, food, whatever, away from someone)

In this case with SC, it is not an essential goods, it is an luxury goods, that can be bought in many ways, there is a rather cheap way to play the game. You can see these "choices" in many other ways, again as I said.. you can buy an non waterproof umbrella for 10k if you wanted... But they are not claiming it to be waterproof (if they had, that would be the fraudulent part)

Bottled water isn't essential though even in an emergency, as people still have drinkable tap water (unless the emergency is something like ecoli infection), yet tons of people hoard bottled water for whatever reason.

At least that's my experience in the emergencies we have had, water from the tap is still drinkable yet people are outraged at a store for selling very expensive bottled water.

It is in some areas of the world, the majority of the worlds inhabitants, don´t have access to clean water and some even rely on bottled water (for it to be clean)

But as I said, you are comparing a fictional event with an essential goods, to a luxury goods. It is just silly to debate like that.

[Morkonan]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Darkie:

...
I think we are down to subjectivity now.
There is nothing illigal going on or problematic with Star Citizen (yet)
...

It has to be admitted, though, that Start Citizen is starting to look a heck of a lot like a duck. It's talking like a duck, it's walking like a duck...

Sure, all those updates and talks and interviews and tech-demos, sure they're cool an' all... But, so are ducks.

Until, that is, one gets them home, slides the silk aside, and turns down the lights only to discover that it's a duck.

If one had to market the "game" and convince someone to invest in buying it by only telling that person what has happened so far and not once mentioning the game's name... it'd look like the biggest darn duck one had ever seen.

Star Citizen is doing exactly what so very many "MMO Scams" have done before it, just biggerer, louder, and more betterer. Is it a scam? Probably not, but it sure as heck looks like a duck.

[AdahnGorion]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Morkonan:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Darkie:

...
I think we are down to subjectivity now.
There is nothing illigal going on or problematic with Star Citizen (yet)
...

It has to be admitted, though, that Start Citizen is starting to look a heck of a lot like a duck. It's talking like a duck, it's walking like a duck...

Sure, all those updates and talks and interviews and tech-demos, sure they're cool an' all... But, so are ducks.

Until, that is, one gets them home, slides the silk aside, and turns down the lights only to discover that it's a duck.

If one had to market the "game" and convince someone to invest in buying it by only telling that person what has happened so far and not once mentioning the game's name... it'd look like the biggest darn duck one had ever seen.

Star Citizen is doing exactly what so very many "MMO Scams" have done before it, just biggerer, louder, and more betterer. Is it a scam? Probably not, but it sure as heck looks like a duck.

As I said.
Nobody is forcing anyone to spend large amount of cash on a luxury goods like a videogame here.. Infact you can get to try Star Citizen for a rather low amount and sometimes even for free.

Not every game delievers what they start out with. That is why people should always pay extra attention in terms of how much they spend on games not fully developed (or other products for that matter) since they write that "its subject for change"

People always have a choice, those the blindly spend large amounts of cash on stuff like ships in a fictional game or 500 lootcases in CSGO, obviously have the economy to do that or are in need of help (some do suffer from addictions to gambling etc after all)

But the games themselves are not doing anything illigal and are not knowingly trying to obtain your cash without giving you anything, if they were and you had evidence about it, I would urge you to report the product (products on steam can easily be reported on the storefront ie)

[shoopy]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Darkie:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Psychotron69666:

How would you feel about a place selling water and ice at 10x the cost during a flood or some other emergency? It may not be considered a scam, but I guarantee you that a lot of people will be upset, and many countries consider that illegal.

People get very emotional about that, yet logic dictates that inflating price like that actually keeps people from hoarding and thus emptying shelves so other people can't buy it.

The argument you pose is flawed because of various reasons.

1. You are comparing essential goods, with luxury goods.
2. False representation of the product we talk about (you don´t have to pay 50k to play SC ie)
3. You are using emotion to govern, rather than logic.

Using real life analogies is just never a good idea, when trying to construct an argument, because you will have an invalid argument to start with.

I fully understand your emotional subjective dislike of various things, but there is again nothing illigal about any of the games we have discussed, nor is there any fraudulent or exploitive nature about them either.

Again.. value is a matter of subjectivity, so is money for that sake.. The value something has, is the value you and others set it to be. The issue that can come, is when essential needs (goods) is exploited or if people try to fraud others (ie. knowlingly try to steal money, food, whatever, away from someone)

In this case with SC, it is not an essential goods, it is an luxury goods, that can be bought in many ways, there is a rather cheap way to play the game. You can see these "choices" in many other ways, again as I said.. you can buy an non waterproof umbrella for 10k if you wanted... But they are not claiming it to be waterproof (if they had, that would be the fraudulent part)

Fraud and theft are also based in emotion. They are illegal because they bother people, not because they are "logically harmful" or something like that. I'm not even sure that there can be logical laws without involving emotion somewhere.

[AdahnGorion]

Oprindeligt skrevet af ardiel:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Darkie:

The argument you pose is flawed because of various reasons.

1. You are comparing essential goods, with luxury goods.
2. False representation of the product we talk about (you don´t have to pay 50k to play SC ie)
3. You are using emotion to govern, rather than logic.

Using real life analogies is just never a good idea, when trying to construct an argument, because you will have an invalid argument to start with.

I fully understand your emotional subjective dislike of various things, but there is again nothing illigal about any of the games we have discussed, nor is there any fraudulent or exploitive nature about them either.

Again.. value is a matter of subjectivity, so is money for that sake.. The value something has, is the value you and others set it to be. The issue that can come, is when essential needs (goods) is exploited or if people try to fraud others (ie. knowlingly try to steal money, food, whatever, away from someone)

In this case with SC, it is not an essential goods, it is an luxury goods, that can be bought in many ways, there is a rather cheap way to play the game. You can see these "choices" in many other ways, again as I said.. you can buy an non waterproof umbrella for 10k if you wanted... But they are not claiming it to be waterproof (if they had, that would be the fraudulent part)

Fraud and theft are also based in emotion. They are illegal because they bother people, not because they are "logically harmful" or something like that. I'm not even sure that there can be logical laws without involving emotion somewhere.

It is not because it bothers people, it is because we most likely would not be able to have a somewhat peaceful and stable society without laws, that prevents the "strongest" from just taking or doing whatever they want.

But lets stick with what we actually have now.. we have laws about this and by those standards SC is not doing anything illigal, nor does it classify as "exploitation" of individuals.

Then we can debate about if we even exist or if we even have a say in our emotions (we can talk about how bias works and how much we are influenced) but as I said before, it would be a long, tiresome, off topic, debate.

So lets stick to the logics behind what we got. I am yet to see anyone providing anything valid in terms of arguments, about Star Citizen being a scam. I have seen emotional subjective dislike, from an individual point of view, but that is not worth anything in the grand debate, nor valid in terms of arguments.

[shoopy]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Darkie:

Oprindeligt skrevet af ardiel:

Fraud and theft are also based in emotion. They are illegal because they bother people, not because they are "logically harmful" or something like that. I'm not even sure that there can be logical laws without involving emotion somewhere.

It is not because it bothers people, it is because we most likely would not be able to have a somewhat peaceful and stable society without laws, that prevents the "strongest" from just taking or doing whatever they want.

Yes, and if that society did not bother anyone, would it be a problem?

But lets stick with what we actually have now.. we have laws about this and by those standards SC is not doing anything illigal, nor does it classify as "exploitation" of individuals.

Then we can debate about if we even exist or if we even have a say in our emotions (we can talk about how bias works and how much we are influenced) but as I said before, it would be a long, tiresome, off topic, debate.

So lets stick to the logics behind what we got. I am yet to see anyone providing anything valid in terms of arguments, about Star Citizen being a scam. I have seen emotional subjective dislike, from an individual point of view, but that is not worth anything in the grand debate, nor valid in terms of arguments.

Most things were legal before being illegal. Many things that are legal in some places are illegal in others.