So... Capcom shenanigans (When does DRM prove to be too much?)

[V-Bro - The Titan's Driver]

Well, in regards to the title's question, I'm sure many players say it's already too much whenever the subject comes up.

But I suppose I mean more to ask, "When does DRM become so much that a massive resistance and possibly legal action is required to beat it back?"
And a prime example has just reared its ugly head.

For those who haven't learned yet, Capcom has taken sneaky actions of adding "Enigma DRM" to several of its already-released games, right here on Steam.

What for? To block and prevent the use of mods in their games. ALL mods.
Needless to say, with that also came performance and stuttering issues as well.

Their excuse? There are many, but those familiar with a certain conference that happened a couple months ago probably recall this: Capcom declared mods to be the equivalent of cheating. (Oh, and the company also doesn't like mods that "violate public order and morals.")

So now Capcom has quickly gotten aggressive attacking any mods, including cosmetic ones that don't affect gameplay at all. And it doesn't end there - they've also recently taken to attacking internet gameplay videos depicting any mods, with copyright strikes.

I believe people should be very concerned with this, even if they don't play any Capcom games at all. After all, if one company can do this, what's to stop others from following example? Remember Rockstar attacking some GTA mods not so long ago?
Can you picture Bethesda suddenly saying you're no longer allowed to use Steam workshop for Skyrim tomorrow? I can - Don't assume they're above that.

And it really begs to question: Just how far should companies be allowed to control mods anyways, because I certainly don't think Capcom should be 'permitted' to do THIS. It's a bad omen for future gaming.

Of course, I'm no legal expert, and even if I was, I wouldn't really know the best course of action here to protect mods when it comes to the international gaming market.

But at least, I think Steam needs start putting in certain limits on how exactly a company can "update" a game. I always feared this risk with games and service always tied online, and once again, problems are materializing.
I strongly desire protections for old games that people possess for years so that, among other reasons, a company cannot suddenly decide to force a performance-killing DRM that restricts how players play their game for their own fun.

Because who's dumb enough to believe this is only about stopping cheating? It's an excuse, not the motive or target.

[Boblin the Goblin]

Originally posted by BJWyler:

Originally posted by V-Bro - The Titan's Driver:

A redundant statement we already know, and I say that's why we need to break that extreme hold. Adjustments are needed. (Easier said than done of course.)
What a massive grave error that we've allowed control freaks to entrench themselves this much into our games.

While the open nature of the PC allows for gamers to do many things with games, including mods (which of course is one of the advantages of PC gaming), developers and publishers are under no obligation to support any of it.

Some love the modding community, others despise it and do consider it cheating. There is nothing wrong with either viewpoint. The devs/pubs own the game and have every right to restrict what is done with it for any reason. While I may disagree with not supporting mods, I accept and respect any dev who takes that position.

So, ultimately, there is nothing wrong with what Capcom is doing. It's up to the gaming community to put aside their entitlement and respect the choice of the owner of said games, even if we don't agree with it. Modding is a privilege, not an inherent right.

The issue is many mods are either cosmetic or improve issues that Capcom refuses to fix with performance or UI and such.

Since Capcom has started to heavily push more and more cosmetic microtransactions, this sudden move to this DRM isn't to do with keeping some type of artistic visions, it's focused on nickel and diming customers as much as possible.

A perfect example is MHW when it released. It has bad stuttering and performance issues. Modders fixed that years before Capcom did.

While it may be a privilege, Capcom's attitude that all mods are the same as piracy or cheating shows they don't deserve respect with their heavy handed tactics.

I would also argue it's more than a 'privilege' to have a game working as expected when you're being charged full price.

[Pierce Dalton]

Originally posted by V-Bro - The Titan's Driver:

those familiar with a certain conference that happened a couple months ago probably recall this: Capcom declared mods to be the equivalent of cheating. (Oh, and the company also doesn't like mods that "violate public order and morals.")

That is extremely hypocritical from Capcom, because they sell dlc that could be considered a cheat:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1348140/Resident_Evil_3__All_Ingame_Rewards_Unlock/

And gore is fine but boobs are not? Heck, they turned it up to 11 in RE2R:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3134352246

[DeadPhoenix]

Originally posted by Psychlapse:

Originally posted by DeadPhoenix:

Welcome to the digital age of gaming. You own nothing, and companies can sadly alter the code of games without the users consent.

They always could. They're called patches and updates. It doesn't become illegal when they do something we don't like, such as adding DRM.

Yep. If a company don't want you to mod their games. They can even drag you in court

[miakisfan]

When piracy ends come talk to me about DRM needing to be out of games. I'll be right there with you. Until then, however ... no way would I be on board with any DRM being removed.

Having played games with DRM and having no issues with those games like I continuously hear about it is nothing but B.S. In the specific case of you not having good enough internet to play these games that's on you, not the developer or publisher of the game. Get better internet or don't buy the game.

If it really bothered them that you aren't buying these games they would have taken it out already. Just like you game developers and publishers have to protect their best interests.

This is the part of this whole thing that bothers me the most, though ... if the shoe were on the other foot and it was the people here complaining about DRM using it in their own products to protect their own best interests. If you don't believe for one second that wouldn't happen you clearly lack common sense.

I'll continue to support games with DRM as long as people don't learn necessary lessons like this. The world doesn't exist for you personally to play games.

[miakisfan]

Originally posted by DeadPhoenix:

Originally posted by Psychlapse:

They always could. They're called patches and updates. It doesn't become illegal when they do something we don't like, such as adding DRM.

Yep. If a company don't want you to mod their games. They can even drag you in court

Would you prefer someone else own your house or car ...or would you drag people to court if they were doing illegal things with your house or car?

The same principle applies here with games. There's a reason laws exist to protect them and their games just like it is supposed to protect you from the same.

You think they are breaking the law with DRM but you don't think it should be illegal to mod a game without permission? What fantasy world are you people living in?

[Crazy Tiger]

Valve won't do anything about that all, in the official Steamworks documentation they actually encourage the use of extra DRM since Steam DRM is very basic.

Certain areas require such information to be available before purchase, though it's not actually enforced much legally.

[Piston Smashed™]

Originally posted by miakisfan:

When piracy ends come talk to me about DRM needing to be out of games. I'll be right there with you. Until then, however ... no way would I be on board with any DRM being removed.

Having played games with DRM and having no issues with those games like I continuously hear about it is nothing but B.S. In the specific case of you not having good enough internet to play these games that's on you, not the developer or publisher of the game. Get better internet or don't buy the game.

If it really bothered them that you aren't buying these games they would have taken it out already. Just like you game developers and publishers have to protect their best interests.

This is the part of this whole thing that bothers me the most, though ... if the shoe were on the other foot and it was the people here complaining about DRM using it in their own products to protect their own best interests. If you don't believe for one second that wouldn't happen you clearly lack common sense.

I'll continue to support games with DRM as long as people don't learn necessary lessons like this. The world doesn't exist for you personally to play games.

Isn't that the truth, take money out their pockets they'd go ape but don't mind if they're the one's taking the money out of someone else's.

It is funny as well I've never really had any problems when it comes to running games with DRM. It's like Denuvo, never had a problem with it and 95% of the time I never know it is in a game until I read about someone crying that they won't buy the game until they remove it.

[Volfogg]

Hard to tell, I still have to install that one game with Denuvo I have. until then my DRM experience is plain ol' zero. I remember it being something about monthly token checks? I guess it doesn't matter that much, since I'm "terminally online".

[Start_Running]

Capcom gonna do what Capcom gonna do.
Valve isn't gonna do anything about it because nothing about it violates the terms you Valve, and the dev/pubs AGREED to.

[Boblin the Goblin]

Originally posted by miakisfan:

Originally posted by DeadPhoenix:

Yep. If a company don't want you to mod their games. They can even drag you in court

Would you prefer someone else own your house or car ...or would you drag people to court if they were doing illegal things with your house or car?

The same principle applies here with games. There's a reason laws exist to protect them and their games just like it is supposed to protect you from the same.

You think they are breaking the law with DRM but you don't think it should be illegal to mod a game without permission? What fantasy world are you people living in?

As long as you aren't distributing the modded game, it shouldn't be illegal. Modding games to fit a player's needs when it doesn't affect anyone else(like cosmetics, UI changes, etc.) shouldn't be illegal in the slightest.

Let's not forget that people also make mods to adjust color for color blindness or adjust audio for those hard of hearing.

[DeadPhoenix]

Originally posted by miakisfan:

Originally posted by DeadPhoenix:

Yep. If a company don't want you to mod their games. They can even drag you in court

Would you prefer someone else own your house or car ...or would you drag people to court if they were doing illegal things with your house or car?

The same principle applies here with games. There's a reason laws exist to protect them and their games just like it is supposed to protect you from the same.

You think they are breaking the law with DRM but you don't think it should be illegal to mod a game without permission? What fantasy world are you people living in?

Read their TOS and you'll find out they have more control than you think.
A House and a Car is different. Its not a digital goods. Just like how any other streaming service can rip away your access with a push of a button.

You don't own any of your games. You pay for a license, and company's can adjust their games with DRM, Always Online or, Live service etc. They own the IP, so they can do whatever they like. And if Capcom wants to add DRM to protect their IP, they're free to do so.

Even Steam can revoke access to your Library if you break their TOS.
If you want actualy owner Ship, Buy from GOG or get it Physical. That way company's cannot alter the code.

[BJWyler]

Originally posted by Piston Smashed™:

Originally posted by miakisfan:

When piracy ends come talk to me about DRM needing to be out of games. I'll be right there with you. Until then, however ... no way would I be on board with any DRM being removed.

Having played games with DRM and having no issues with those games like I continuously hear about it is nothing but B.S. In the specific case of you not having good enough internet to play these games that's on you, not the developer or publisher of the game. Get better internet or don't buy the game.

If it really bothered them that you aren't buying these games they would have taken it out already. Just like you game developers and publishers have to protect their best interests.

This is the part of this whole thing that bothers me the most, though ... if the shoe were on the other foot and it was the people here complaining about DRM using it in their own products to protect their own best interests. If you don't believe for one second that wouldn't happen you clearly lack common sense.

I'll continue to support games with DRM as long as people don't learn necessary lessons like this. The world doesn't exist for you personally to play games.

Isn't that the truth, take money out their pockets they'd go ape but don't mind if they're the one's taking the money out of someone else's.

It is funny as well I've never really had any problems when it comes to running games with DRM. It's like Denuvo, never had a problem with it and 95% of the time I never know it is in a game until I read about someone crying that they won't buy the game until they remove it.

How true. The only time I really ran into a problem with DRM is when the activation servers that Disney used for some games, like Tron: Evolution. When I went to install it on my new PC, I found that I couldn't, so I had to find someone who had set up a fake activation server in order to get it installed and running on my rig.

But the thing that amazes me the most is the crying you will hear from the gaming community about greedy devs, and how they are trying to nickel and dime everyone, but they won't think twice about stealing a game they want to play. Maybe devs and pubs wouldn't need to nickel and dime the gaming community if everyone just paid for the games - it's not like the price has risen all that much in the last 40 years. Heck it's cheaper to be a gamer now than it was in the 80's.

[BJWyler]

Originally posted by SlowMango:

The issue is many mods are either cosmetic or improve issues that Capcom refuses to fix with performance or UI and such.

Which isn't all that different from a lot of mods for a lot of games over the decades. Heck, the Elder Scrolls series still continues to live mostly because of the modding community. But like I said, each dev/pub is going to have their own outlook on modding, and it's mostly down to the bottom line on that.

Originally posted by SlowMango:

Since Capcom has started to heavily push more and more cosmetic microtransactions, this sudden move to this DRM isn't to do with keeping some type of artistic visions, it's focused on nickel and diming customers as much as possible.

Well, not everything has to do with artistic vision. These are not charities, they are businesses and they will ensure the security of their bottom line. As for nickel and diming - yes there are varying opinions on that, but I'll just refer to my reply to another post above in regards to that. At some point, the gaming industry has to adjust its business model for the times. The times have called for microtransactions. I personally am fine with MTX as it has been for the most part.

Originally posted by SlowMango:

A perfect example is MHW when it released. It has bad stuttering and performance issues. Modders fixed that years before Capcom did.

Again, one of the benefits of PC gaming - although one can reasonably argue that it also had lead to bad practices by devs and pubs. There is certainly improvements that can be made from the industry side.

Originally posted by SlowMango:

While it may be a privilege, Capcom's attitude that all mods are the same as piracy or cheating shows they don't deserve respect with their heavy handed tactics.

I would also argue it's more than a 'privilege' to have a game working as expected when you're being charged full price.

I don't really disagree with that. Like I said, we may not like it, and what Capcom is doing certainly can be considered heavy handed. But I still support their right to do what they are doing, and when it comes to things like cosmetic mods being a possible interference to their Microtransaction bottom line, also can understand the reasoning behind some of it. Like I said, there certainly can be things that the industry can do to improve things for the gaming community, but the gaming community also has a few things it can do to improve itself as well, so things like this may not need to come to a head in the future.

[Piston Smashed™]

Originally posted by BJWyler:

Originally posted by Piston Smashed™:

Isn't that the truth, take money out their pockets they'd go ape but don't mind if they're the one's taking the money out of someone else's.

It is funny as well I've never really had any problems when it comes to running games with DRM. It's like Denuvo, never had a problem with it and 95% of the time I never know it is in a game until I read about someone crying that they won't buy the game until they remove it.

How true. The only time I really ran into a problem with DRM is when the activation servers that Disney used for some games, like Tron: Evolution. When I went to install it on my new PC, I found that I couldn't, so I had to find someone who had set up a fake activation server in order to get it installed and running on my rig.

But the thing that amazes me the most is the crying you will hear from the gaming community about greedy devs, and how they are trying to nickel and dime everyone, but they won't think twice about stealing a game they want to play. Maybe devs and pubs wouldn't need to nickel and dime the gaming community if everyone just paid for the games - it's not like the price has risen all that much in the last 40 years. Heck it's cheaper to be a gamer now than it was in the 80's.

I remember my dad driving 20 miles to the Atari shop when I was a young lad,just so he could spend 50 quid a pop on Atari 2600 games back in the early 80's. I paid 50 quid a pop back in the 90's for my games, I think I still have the receipt for Final Fantasy VII, Suikoden and few others for £49.99 in their case.

I've always loved the excuse "well if they didn't have DRM I'd pay for the game" but then you check their accounts and 95% of the time it's full of free to play games or games which have been given away free and at best a few handful of games which were 95% off in some sale a few years ago.

[Boblin the Goblin]

Originally posted by BJWyler:

Originally posted by SlowMango:

The issue is many mods are either cosmetic or improve issues that Capcom refuses to fix with performance or UI and such.

Which isn't all that different from a lot of mods for a lot of games over the decades. Heck, the Elder Scrolls series still continues to live mostly because of the modding community. But like I said, each dev/pub is going to have their own outlook on modding, and it's mostly down to the bottom line on that.

Originally posted by SlowMango:

Since Capcom has started to heavily push more and more cosmetic microtransactions, this sudden move to this DRM isn't to do with keeping some type of artistic visions, it's focused on nickel and diming customers as much as possible.

Well, not everything has to do with artistic vision. These are not charities, they are businesses and they will ensure the security of their bottom line. As for nickel and diming - yes there are varying opinions on that, but I'll just refer to my reply to another post above in regards to that. At some point, the gaming industry has to adjust its business model for the times. The times have called for microtransactions. I personally am fine with MTX as it has been for the most part.

Originally posted by SlowMango:

A perfect example is MHW when it released. It has bad stuttering and performance issues. Modders fixed that years before Capcom did.

Again, one of the benefits of PC gaming - although one can reasonably argue that it also had lead to bad practices by devs and pubs. There is certainly improvements that can be made from the industry side.

Originally posted by SlowMango:

While it may be a privilege, Capcom's attitude that all mods are the same as piracy or cheating shows they don't deserve respect with their heavy handed tactics.

I would also argue it's more than a 'privilege' to have a game working as expected when you're being charged full price.

I don't really disagree with that. Like I said, we may not like it, and what Capcom is doing certainly can be considered heavy handed. But I still support their right to do what they are doing, and when it comes to things like cosmetic mods being a possible interference to their Microtransaction bottom line, also can understand the reasoning behind some of it. Like I said, there certainly can be things that the industry can do to improve things for the gaming community, but the gaming community also has a few things it can do to improve itself as well, so things like this may not need to come to a head in the future.

The problem is bigger developers don't want to compromise regardless of the evidence that allowing mods greatly increases the lifespan of a game.

While this is technically Capcom's right since they own the IPs, the negative reaction shouldn't be dismissed lightly because of what this could also potentially impact with other studios.

Especially the retroactive DRM part.