BioShock Infinite

BioShock Infinite

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Samael Sep 3, 2022 @ 3:36am
Why is Valve allowing 2K to do this?
The reason games are required to state the existence of 3rd party launchers is so that the buyer can make an informed decision when buying the game.

Yet when a publishers sneak that trash in at a later date, it's totally ok??? No need to disclose that info?

This amounts to false advertisement.
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Showing 1-15 of 65 comments
rarestMeow Sep 3, 2022 @ 3:42am 
3
hello,

yes, that's completely legal - because you don't own anything in Steam. publisher own their content. you only get an access (subscription) to the product, which can be modified anytime they want without your prior knowledge. if 2K really want they can delete all games from Steam with no refund (and with their mini-store coming next year I believe they are done with Steam and will sell the games on their own)

Steam is a marketplace, they don't control the content
Last edited by rarestMeow; Sep 3, 2022 @ 3:42am
J.P. Sep 3, 2022 @ 3:56am 
Originally posted by rarestMeow:
Steam is a marketplace, they don't control the content
Steam has full control on who's products they sell on their platform, and have removed some in the past, due to various reasons.
Samael Sep 3, 2022 @ 4:00am 
Originally posted by rarestMeow:
hello,

yes, that's completely legal - because you don't own anything in Steam. publisher own their content. you only get an access (subscription) to the product, which can be modified anytime they want without your prior knowledge. if 2K really want they can delete all games from Steam with no refund (and with their mini-store coming next year I believe they are done with Steam and will sell the games on their own)

Steam is a marketplace, they don't control the content
Who's talking about ownership? I'm aware I dont own anything here. I want to know why 2K is allowed not to disclose the existence of a launcher just cause they snuck it in at a later date. And I'd also like to know how this isnt false advertisement.
Last edited by Samael; Sep 3, 2022 @ 4:00am
rarestMeow Sep 3, 2022 @ 5:04am 
Originally posted by J.P.:
Steam has full control on who's products they sell on their platform, and have removed some in the past, due to various reasons.
and what it proves? there is no quality control on Steam - just pay 100$ for direct-publishing and you can sell whatever trash you want. like "Putin vs COVID-19". your publishing content will be removed only in some rare cases like copyright infringement, bland sex/nudity/hentai stuff that ain't censored properly, various hate/racism/bait/troll game, etc

Steam doesn't care what publishers are selling and what they do with their content. Steam cares about two thing only:
1) their 30/70 profit split
2) compliance with various high-court decision (ECJ, SCOTUS, whatever weed AUS+NZ been smoking)

if some high-court rules that all games' descriptions on Steam must me 12+ friendly (because children are using that service) - they Steam will enforce all developers to comply or ban their games. for example, that's why Postal 2's achievement icons - that were all about sex, drugs and rock-n-roll - were edited. Steam doesn't care what Running with Scissors are doing with Postal 2 but they do care if that game somehow goes against high-court ruling

Steam is a marketplace and they liable in regard of collecting and proving information from publishers, selling the correct game to customers, managing money and fees, displaying the most up-to-date information about the products and such. whatever happen with the products after the deal is none of their business

Originally posted by Samael:
I'm aware I dont own anything here. I want to know why 2K is allowed not to disclose the existence of a launcher just cause they snuck it in at a later date. And I'd also like to know how this isnt false advertisement.
publishers are NOT oblige to report of any extra DRM-protection in their games. they also are not enforced to inform about anti-cheat measures, game engine, how many years it took to create that game, and how much of bucks their CEO got. publishers may post only whatever they want. it is up for customer to check for any inconveniences. that's why Steam has 2h/14d refund policy

in SteamWorks publishers have two separate flags they can toggle when they create a new game (or edit it): "3rd-Party Account" and "3rd-Party DRM". but NOONE forces them to toggle them if true - because once again it isn't Steam' business. remind all those Denuvo controversies?

Don't Starve Together actually requires a third-party account either to play online or to get extra items - don't remember exactly - but nowhere on Store you will see that information because proving that information right in open isn't necessary to be published on Steam

it cannot be classified as "false advertisement" if the information isn't required in first place

and as for "why 2K is allowed not to disclose the existence of a launcher" - because it is their game. they are allowed to do with it whatever they like anytime they want. and nobody will ask the customer's opinion. unsatisfied customers may go and write a negative review, but those reviews can be deleted by moderators on the ground of being offtop and the customer may be temporary banned from publishing new reviews
Last edited by rarestMeow; Sep 3, 2022 @ 5:06am
Spooda Sep 3, 2022 @ 5:13am 
Try buying on GOG. I bought mafia definitive edition on GOG and it doesn't have a launcher. The game starts right up just like pressing on an .exe. GOG is completely DRM free to the point where "my 2k account" in the mafia game is grayed out and unaccessible.
Last edited by Spooda; Sep 3, 2022 @ 5:13am
Fish and Chips Sep 3, 2022 @ 5:13am 
These things wouldn't be the big issue it is if Valve made it easier for us to have more control over updates. Like not forcing us to update a game if we launch the game through Steam while online, and being able to easily roll back to older versions.

There's not a lot that can be done to prevent publishers from making bad consumer decisions, but Valve could do a lot to improve the experience for us by having better systems in place so we can retain access to versions of the game we bought instead of random updates ruining the product years later.
rarestMeow Sep 3, 2022 @ 5:20am 
Originally posted by Fish and Chips:
These things wouldn't be the big issue it is if Valve made it easier for us to have more control over updates. Like not forcing us to update a game if we launch the game through Steam while online, and being able to easily roll back to older versions.

games owned by publishers and they want people to use the most up-to-date version for various issues (fixes, patches, launchers, streamlined customer support, control over content, data collection...) - that's why Valve removed the option to move back to the previous version

if people really want to revert back the changes, then they must use SteamCLI
https://framedsc.com/GeneralGuides/steam_update_guide.htm
or DepotDownloader
https://github.com/SteamRE/DepotDownloader
Arokhantos™ Sep 3, 2022 @ 5:35am 
Originally posted by rarestMeow:
Originally posted by Fish and Chips:
These things wouldn't be the big issue it is if Valve made it easier for us to have more control over updates. Like not forcing us to update a game if we launch the game through Steam while online, and being able to easily roll back to older versions.

games owned by publishers and they want people to use the most up-to-date version for various issues (fixes, patches, launchers, streamlined customer support, control over content, data collection...) - that's why Valve removed the option to move back to the previous version

if people really want to revert back the changes, then they must use SteamCLI
https://framedsc.com/GeneralGuides/steam_update_guide.htm
or DepotDownloader
https://github.com/SteamRE/DepotDownloader

Thanks for linking this
Lantea Sep 3, 2022 @ 7:04am 
Valve definitely needs to implement a new policy that prevents publishers from screwing over Steam players by putting it anti-consumer BS years after a game launches or releasing 'updates' that fundamentally break the game (on linux in this case) and add features that have zero benefit to the player and are solely intended for data mining and advertising.
Rage Sep 3, 2022 @ 8:57am 
Originally posted by Lantea:
Valve definitely needs to implement a new policy that prevents publishers from screwing over Steam players by putting it anti-consumer BS years after a game launches or releasing 'updates' that fundamentally break the game (on linux in this case) and add features that have zero benefit to the player and are solely intended for data mining and advertising.
this
we need an email campaign about this directed at Gabe Newell's email address, this it getting out of control.
Last edited by Rage; Sep 3, 2022 @ 8:58am
mazepa Sep 3, 2022 @ 9:30am 
That was a huuuuuge mistake by Valve to allow companies to do shіt like that.

ps Lantea +++
Last edited by mazepa; Sep 3, 2022 @ 9:30am
rarestMeow Sep 3, 2022 @ 9:59am 
Originally posted by Rage:
we need an email campaign about this directed at Gabe Newell's email address, this it getting out of control.
...or else what?

OK, you told Gaben personally that you don't like extra DRMs in Steam games and don't want publishers to change their games in the way they like. he then asked you what will you do otherwise?

really, what your other options? go buy games somewhere else? what else do we have then? Epic Store, EA Access, Ubisoft Connect, Rockstar whatever, Humble stuff? so going to fight launchers with launchers - amazing, stonks, 200 IQ

oh, we do have GOG, right. but they do have their own launcher too - GOG Galaxy and step after step becoming like Steam (see No Man's Sky controversy, for example)

what your other options then? don't buy the games with extra launchers in first place? "oh yes I am NOT against Steam's launcher that DOES collect my data and provides it to Publishers - see SteamWorks - that's alright. but when publisher themselves creates their own launcher than I am pissed off"

please, I see that b!tching and moaning for years now. some game gets a brand-new launcher, people are angry, calling a lynch mob, and then nothing. until the next launcher. that is a state of gaming for you: those launchers will come and further defrag the market - you can do nothing with it, relax. 2K end-game is to create their own store and sell exclusives like Bioshock 4 here to avoid 30/70 revenue

the whole business between publishers and Valve goes like that

publishers: we will implement DRM in our games or edit it how we like
Valve: we are against it
publishers: then we move to our own store entirely or to Epic - they like to give cheap money anyway (see Deep Silver) and we don't care as much as we get profit
Valve: but we like money too
publishers: so do we!
Valve: ok, deal

Steam is entirely publisher-focused platform, get used to it. all your opinions are restricted by ToS which says "we don't care what you think"

your only option to change things are to delete Steam from your PC entirely and don't buy games here for year-two. if 50.000.000 people from developed countries (Five Eyes + G20) do that - then it will make an impact. but people will never pull stunt like that. in fact judging from current Dota2 and CSGO microcosm - if Valve close their Steam entirely and refocus on their Gacha-like games with inner-market, they still will have enough money to cover all their needs and development of brand new games every 3-5 years - but other developers will move on their own platforms and markets entirely instead. so not sure what the possible positive end-game here

Originally posted by mazepa:
That was a huuuuuge mistake by Valve to allow companies to do shіt like that.
because publishers bring money to Valve, not customers - so Steam was developed (in past years) among their needs



sorry for being a pale fruit here, just want to knock you all from your seven heaven and remind the actual state of things without sugarcoating it
mazepa Sep 3, 2022 @ 10:00am 
>because publishers bring money to Valve, not customers
lmao

ps gog is a really good place.
Last edited by mazepa; Sep 3, 2022 @ 10:01am
Rage Sep 3, 2022 @ 10:10am 
Originally posted by rarestMeow:
Originally posted by Rage:
we need an email campaign about this directed at Gabe Newell's email address, this it getting out of control.
...or else what?

OK, you told Gaben personally that you don't like extra DRMs in Steam games and don't want publishers to change their games in the way they like. he then asked you what will you do otherwise?

really, what your other options? go buy games somewhere else? what else do we have then? Epic Store, EA Access, Ubisoft Connect, Rockstar whatever, Humble stuff? so going to fight launchers with launchers - amazing, stonks, 200 IQ

oh, we do have GOG, right. but they do have their own launcher too - GOG Galaxy and step after step becoming like Steam (see No Man's Sky controversy, for example)

what your other options then? don't buy the games with extra launchers in first place? "oh yes I am NOT against Steam's launcher that DOES collect my data and provides it to Publishers - see SteamWorks - that's alright. but when publisher themselves creates their own launcher than I am pissed off"

please, I see that b!tching and moaning for years now. some game gets a brand-new launcher, people are angry, calling a lynch mob, and then nothing. until the next launcher. that is a state of gaming for you: those launchers will come and further defrag the market - you can do nothing with it, relax. 2K end-game is to create their own store and sell exclusives like Bioshock 4 here to avoid 30/70 revenue

the whole business between publishers and Valve goes like that

publishers: we will implement DRM in our games or edit it how we like
Valve: we are against it
publishers: then we move to our own store entirely or to Epic - they like to give cheap money anyway (see Deep Silver) and we don't care as much as we get profit
Valve: but we like money too
publishers: so do we!
Valve: ok, deal

Steam is entirely publisher-focused platform, get used to it. all your opinions are restricted by ToS which says "we don't care what you think"

your only option to change things are to delete Steam from your PC entirely and don't buy games here for year-two. if 50.000.000 people from developed countries (Five Eyes + G20) do that - then it will make an impact. but people will never pull stunt like that. in fact judging from current Dota2 and CSGO microcosm - if Valve close their Steam entirely and refocus on their Gacha-like games with inner-market, they still will have enough money to cover all their needs and development of brand new games every 3-5 years - but other developers will move on their own platforms and markets entirely instead. so not sure what the possible positive end-game here

Originally posted by mazepa:
That was a huuuuuge mistake by Valve to allow companies to do shіt like that.
because publishers bring money to Valve, not customers - so Steam was developed (in past years) among their needs



sorry for being a pale fruit here, just want to knock you all from your seven heaven and remind the actual state of things without sugarcoating it
GOG doesn't require their launcher to play games, and DRM free installers are available for download, and it's a SOLID option against these kind of shenanigans.
You want to be defeatist by all means go ahead, but consumer revolts can and DO work (see the current Rings of Power situation with Amazon trying to damage control by deleting reviews on IMDB, or Netflix cancelling their garbage Cowboy Bebop live action show).
Gabe Newell doesn't actually monitor that email, but his public relations team does and the more pings this issue gets the more likely it is to be addressed, and honestly I DON'T CARE about new games, I've already written most off anyway so it doesn't bother me but changing the condition and requirements of game a significant time after the initial agreement/payment period has passed is changing the terms of a deal looooong after it was agreed to and I doubt it would hold up if someone was crazy enough to take it to court.
illgib Sep 3, 2022 @ 10:45am 
Originally posted by Rage:
...snip...
Don't know you dude, but the last time i launched a Gog game, Galaxy loaded up.
Drm and Galaxy are two different things, and like it or not, Galaxy it's required to launch Gog games.

By the way, Gog it's actually Cd Project launcher/store.
Steam it's simply a store not a publisher, and i can't really blame devs trying to set their own store if they can offer better deals on their own games since they don't own any % to Steam or whatever store they are on.

Datamining it's the usual tinfoil hat fear disproved in no time, like the Denuvo performances degradation.

Get yourself guys.
Last edited by illgib; Sep 3, 2022 @ 10:48am
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Date Posted: Sep 3, 2022 @ 3:36am
Posts: 65