Organ Guns are now useless

[Solomon Red]

This rework to Organ Guns has made them completely useless.

They can't kill anything at range due to no accuracy and not top end damage.

All infantry units have even more pierce armor now, so they can't even kill the one thing they are meant to kill. Only the spearman lines actually dies to them.

They do 0 damage to cavalry, siege, skirmishers, buildings, archers and late game infantry.

They need to revert this change entirely and nerf them another way.

[-Dare Devil/x/]

-The beautiful part of a non-dead game and active dev and community interactions is that they don't need to knee jerk remove units but can constantly balance and adjust. It isn't really easy to cross balance 30+ civs in 4 different ages for multiple skill levels. I much rather them actually try and try again. Rather than be too scared to change anything and we be stuck with AOK+AOC and never saw the light of day of any of the DLCs.

[76561199232607771]

Publicado originalmente por -Dare Devil/x/:

-The beautiful part of a non-dead game and active dev and community interactions is that they don't need to knee jerk remove units but can constantly balance and adjust. It isn't really easy to cross balance 30+ civs in 4 different ages for multiple skill levels. I much rather them actually try and try again. Rather than be too scared to change anything and we be stuck with AOK+AOC and never saw the light of day of any of the DLCs.

Yep, a totally unbiased and balanced take from a mod (nudge-nudge, wink-wink).

[jonoliveira12]

Publicado originalmente por -Dare Devil/x/:

-The beautiful part of a non-dead game and active dev and community interactions is that they don't need to knee jerk remove units but can constantly balance and adjust. It isn't really easy to cross balance 30+ civs in 4 different ages for multiple skill levels. I much rather them actually try and try again. Rather than be too scared to change anything and we be stuck with AOK+AOC and never saw the light of day of any of the DLCs.

It would be better if they just removed elements tehy cannot balance.
Not every can work in a competitive environment, and teh Editor would be a great place for strong OGs.

As it is right now, Ports already do not have a Land UU (current OG is worse than Scorpion, even against Pikes), so removing it would change literally nothing.

I myself am portuguese, and we owned, but never used Organ Guns, at least on record, and we do have really good records.

It would be more Unique for Ports to have no UU, than have this lame one that does literally nothing, will constantly be a drag in balancing the civ, and is functionally the worst Gunpowder unit ever implemented in the entire game.

[Baal walk 5]

Publicado originalmente por -Dare Devil/x/:

-The beautiful part of a non-dead game and active dev and community interactions is that they don't need to knee jerk remove units but can constantly balance and adjust. It isn't really easy to cross balance 30+ civs in 4 different ages for multiple skill levels. I much rather them actually try and try again. Rather than be too scared to change anything and we be stuck with AOK+AOC and never saw the light of day of any of the DLCs.

I love how I can give the clown award to people on here lol.

[AncientGamer]

They should use the actual special unit, that Portugal had: "The upper echelons of society also produced the ginetes, the Portuguese version of the renowned light Iberian cavalry"

[jonoliveira12]

Publicado originalmente por AncientGamer:

They should use the actual special unit, that Portugal had: "The upper echelons of society also produced the ginetes, the Portuguese version of the renowned light Iberian cavalry"

Genitours should have been a Regional Unit, but as they are, they are not going to be taken away from the Berbers, to be transformed into a new Ports UU.

[76561199232607771]

Publicado originalmente por AncientGamer:

They should use the actual special unit, that Portugal had: "The upper echelons of society also produced the ginetes, the Portuguese version of the renowned light Iberian cavalry"

You talkin' 'bout genitours?

"As a military term, jinete (also spelled ginete or genitour) means a Spanish light horseman that wore leather armor and were armed with javelins, a spear, a sword, and a shield."

Kinda hard to make a Berber unit also a Portuguese one...

[chaoticbalrog]

Maybe the devs should have brought in the Culverin from AoE3 and made that the Portuguese UU. The Culverin would be a ranged Siege weapon with melee damage a la Bombard Cannon, but with less anti-building bonus damage and even more bonus damage vs Siege weapons.

[jonoliveira12]

Publicado originalmente por chaoticbalrog:

Maybe the devs should have brought in the Culverin from AoE3 and made that the Portuguese UU. The Culverin would be a ranged Siege weapon with melee damage a la Bombard Cannon, but with less anti-building bonus damage and even more bonus damage vs Siege weapons.

A Bronzer, or Bronze Culverin, or even Coluverina (portuguese spelling) that specialises at breaking Siege units and Ships, at long distances; would have been the perfecy UU for Ports, the supposed "advanced Gunpowder civilization".

[chaoticbalrog]

From there, I would have the Organ Gun become the Unique Unit of the Britons and move the Longbowman to the Archery Range to replace the Hand Cannoneer that Brtions don't even get (if the Welsh become their own civ, Britons would definitely have to share Longbowman with the Welsh since the Welsh Longbow inspired the creation of the English Longbow).

[jonoliveira12]

Publicado originalmente por chaoticbalrog:

From there, I would have the Organ Gun become the Unique Unit of the Britons and move the Longbowman to the Archery Range to replace the Hand Cannoneer that Brtions don't even get (if the Welsh become their own civ, Britons would definitely have to share Longbowman with the Welsh).

Or, make the Organ Gun a regional unit available to several European civs (Britons, Franks, Poles, Teutons, Italians and Slavs) that historically used them, as a replacement for the Scorpion (like the Armoured Elephant replaces the Ram for Indian civs).

OGs, even this weak, from the Siege Workshop, may actually get used, specially for civs that lack good Archery Range units (Teutons and Franks), or civs with bonii for Gunpowder or Siege units (Slavs and Italians).

OGs just do not make sense as a Portuguese UU, specially when nerfed so much they do not justify the being made from a Castle.

The devs already did this with the Elephant Archer, which went from an UU, to a RU, and is actually getting used now.

[mmmcheesywaffles]

Publicado originalmente por Bull:

Publicado originalmente por -Dare Devil/x/:

-The beautiful part of a non-dead game and active dev and community interactions is that they don't need to knee jerk remove units but can constantly balance and adjust. It isn't really easy to cross balance 30+ civs in 4 different ages for multiple skill levels. I much rather them actually try and try again. Rather than be too scared to change anything and we be stuck with AOK+AOC and never saw the light of day of any of the DLCs.

Yep, a totally unbiased and balanced take from a mod (nudge-nudge, wink-wink).

First I agree with Daredevil on this. Balance is always an ongoing experiment.
Second, I have not always agreed with Daredevil, but I definitely don't see him a a shill or stooge for the Devs. I find your comment needlessly disrespectful and you should consider that many new players are coming to the franchise and this Forum. This is a busy Forum and imho the Moderation of it is good.

Now back on the real topic....
Plenty of designers played with the original concept of the Organ Gun since they first appeared in the 13th century. Even DaVinci tried his hand at one around the turn of the 15th Century. They were as said above, meant to be for anti cavalry... to suppress or deter a cavalry charge that would have otherwise swept a large number of militia off the face of the earth.

If the change to Organ Guns {spreading the strength of the fire over a wide area} is deliberate then I might start using them more myself. Some designs were laid in such a way as to emphasise a killing zone to the front of the gun. They would likely kill or maim any horse charging toward the gun and spread enough shot nearby to take out others.

In RL the Organ guns were an expensive one off defence weapon used to suppress a charge without adequate protectors they would be long overrun before they could reload. They were brought in during the period of transfer from arrows and crossbows to firearms
as they were struggling against better armour, especially cavalry.

[jonoliveira12]

Funny thing is, there is no Gunpowder unit taht is anti-Cavalry, so giving the Organ Gun a LARGE bonus against Cavalry, so it starts cutting down Paladins and Cavaliers from Range, would actually make it an Unique Unit.

However, teh way the game works, this would be completely overpowered.

[Vemonia]

I don't think Organ gun are so useless that as good as having no UU. Reading this kind of comments make me think that the devs should delay the small buff the UU need for a few more months to make sure that the Portuguese mains get the message: they changed to purpose of the UU, and it is not a OP kill them all type of UU.

Now the UU is some kind of xbow that does not need blacksmith upgrades and does not die to skirms (while your other units kill them).

I can understand though that it may be upsetting even for reasonable Portuguese mains, as they may have chosen to main the civ years ago despite its poor economy because they wanted to play the organ gun as it was. And over the last patch, Portuguese kind of shifted from being an Arena/Nomad civ with OP UU to an open map civ with well rounded eco and military option. So they may want to change their main civ to another one that better fits their need (maybe Mongols, Koreans, Bohemians, ...).

I do not see any problem with having "historical inaccuracy" by giving Organ guns to portuguese just like they give Woad Raider to Celts. It is fine for the devs to keep some of their little crazy ideas... I would be in favor of keeping Portuguese Orga guns and onky change it if they change it in aoe3 as well. And I do not see a problem with having a UU that is not OP, we have Teutonic knights and war elephants that barely saw any use over the past many years as well.

[Paulo Ramos]

Just increase Organ Gun base damage by 1 or 2 points.