1.1.0.20 New RCO train and major rebalance of existing trackbuilders

[Sirius Czech]

Short story:

ES dlc came and with it an idea for a big and long tracklaying train needing massive amount of workers, but capable of building hundreds of meters of tracks in one go instead of few dozens.

Then a message of new Ya-3 soon-to-come rail crane reached. And "where to put it in terms of balance" question came with it.

With the question came a long-laying skeleton in the game´s wardrobe - all trackbuilders are in disbalance. Hardly anyone uses anyting besides disassembled AGMu/MUV -> EDK300 combo, and those who do are usually forced by the size of medium customs, which short station does not allow EDK to be spawned, so DKGu was the way and a painful one indeed - it was abysmally slow compared to EDK. Well, everywhing was abysmally slow compared to it.

A "could you design the balancing of ES cranes AND modern ones alike" call then came.

Mmm... Instead of designing (compiling) one or two trains, being able to such massive update with relatively free hands besides "don´t make them too OP" instruction?
ABSOLUTELY YES!

So here we go...

What you should know

For full understanding you need to be able to know what each parameter does (if it does anything). I will go over them in short bellow links, here and am including videos in EN and CZ with more details and demonstratons.

CZ version for CZ/SK viewers
https://youtu.be/5yQ-Mvtp_Tw

EN version for the rest of the world
https://youtu.be/FNZSmDnht3o?si=S6SDz0r0soFu-OVx

Parameters
Speed: traverse speed on normal rails
Length: how long the train is (important especially for CH)
Level: how much it can carry (and build) in one trip
Workers (hidden param): How many workers ARE ALLOWED to participate at most (the more, the faster the build speed is
Modificator (tracklayers only, hidden): boost to workers (x3 = each worker does triple the work)

Traversing speed on fully unfinished blocks of rails is 24 km/h top, building speed is directly connected to how many workers (after modificator is applied) do take part in that particular rail piece. This is true for all RCO trains.

===== choo-chooooo ======

Centerpiece of rebalance

Full night livestream occured where experiments were done to fully understand how things work. The actual parameters on which trains are balanced are little tricky to explain as well. You can see them counted in googlesheet table - link is included under videos above (both of those lead to same table) and I will explain the train-of-thought here.

Low parameters threats
Low speed = taking long to reach a building site (and longer blocking of junctions)
Big length = need to care about junction design/signalling a little, but nothing else (though for most players is this somewhat a rocket science, streamers included :D)
Low level = need for restocking more often in larger projects. Delays stuff.
High level = need for high supply stocks in RCO; which especially on realistic early start is a challenging task
Low workers = really slow build speed anyways
High workers = challenging to have enough of them to fully utilise the power of the train

Now there are trains that are brutally abysmal. ES LTC builder had lvl 4 and 8 workers - it thus build around 11m of tracks in one go while it still took a long time to do so with only 8 workers. Top it with crawlspeed of 20 km/h and you have by far the worst thing in the game.

But many didn´t seem so at first or was not easily comparable, hence the creation of the table mentioned.

A cornerstone for balancing is a building site with 3000m driving distance in total (so ca 1500m from the RCO). Performance of each trackbuilder is counted in "roundtrip workspeed" and units are meters/day. That value means that if the train was building continuously long stretches of rails in the same distance, how fast would the whole project get done?

For counting parameters it was counted that you actually can staff the whole RCO fully with manpower AND have it filled with materials, despite it being a little challenge on it´s own - but that challenge is common for all trains and unrelated to their parameters.

Examples of former vs. future parameters

What to keep in mind: faster trains have advantage in driving, so the longer the distance, the better they perform. High-level trains need less trips. Big workforce trains build faster, but if not high-levelled, they kinda waste lots of the workforce in the driving time etc.

I am not listing everything, just a few examples:
Former LTC mentioned had 1,1 m/day rountrip speed (because rountrip driving time was almost 10 days). Using LTC for anything slightly further from RCO thus was a suicide.

Former EDK300 had 41,45 m/day in 3000m roundtrip (RT). And with max speed of 65 km/h (highest of all RCO trains), its advantage grew with distance even more.
For comparison: Second best train in the game was the Kzh 461 with 19,08 m/day. Yes, despite coming 7 years later as an "improvement", it was worse then HALF of an EDK.

No wonder nobody used anything besides EDK.

That is about to change.

While EDK stayed as a "template" and its parameters were intact besides turning down workers from 60 to 50 (and thus nerfing it to "only" 38,47 m/day), massive changes struck rest of the fleet. Wagons were added to most, length grew, level was improved based on it as well as possible workforce. Now you can have a "blue army" how railway workforce was called due to their sheer workcount decades ago.

Results? Kzh coming in 1971 with stunning 92m length can now build 52,88 m/day and over 220 m in one drive.
UK-25 tracklayer, moved 10 years back to 1975, has beed added 4 wagons and now boasts with level 175 - parameter allowing it to lay up to 469 (!) meters of tracks in one go with tracklaying speed of 75 m/day roundtrip; all of it with only 30 workers crew.

Rest of RCO trains, including ES ones, had been given similar treatment. Common denominator is that the older the train is, the worse it is in RT value. Exceptions are for disassembled trackbuilders, which have significantly worse values, but are significantly cheaper. On the other hand - if your republic desires a massive trackbuilder, it needs to prepare a chunky sum of cash.
You now have the ability to solve problems by throwing money one them - you just need to throw a lot of money

Tips and thanks

There are 3 RCO trains marked as tracklayers now. One of them is UK-25, two of those are "my" Br80 consists. These are special, because while they can build tracks much faster then their rail-crane counterparts, they cannot do anything else then laying tracks. No tunnels, no bridges and not even catenary - though they can still build the rail-part of electrified rails, they just won´t go out there for driving poles to the ground in the second phase. Use them with this knowledge and don´t scream in bug forum for this :)

I am just an "accountant" and text files editor. All credits for actual trains and wagons go to their modellers, especially Kalmoire and Sarbro. Huge thanks to you guys for giving me this opportunity and cooperating this well about any problems found.

And obviously thanks to Peter Adamczik, who gave this a green light. We are close to finish line with Kalmoire. Which could be observed on beta branch I think, as game version 1.1.0.18 features the O+K rail crane (ES DLC) with new values afaik. Soon might other trains follow :)

How will the update influence your current republics?

After the rework is pushed to the game, all vehicle values are immediately applied, so your trains will react without any input.
What will not happen automatically is the count of vagons etc. For that one you will need to re-buy the train.
As length of the train is not tied to max level of the train or any other values (I could modify LTC to go 100 km/h and load 1000m of tracks and game would simply do it with its one small wooden wagon), there should not be any problems. But internal and beta-testing will hopefully show us if this is true.

After all, as noone is usually using any other cranes then EDK and that one had no change in appearance at all, there is very little space for hiccups anyway, right? :)

Let us know what you think bellow!

Sirius Czech

[Kaia]

Good thread, I thought the same; balance between the vanilla game and the Early start DLC is out of whack.

But I think it doesn't just apply to rail cranes. Although they're a good example, there are for sure a lot of examples to be named in the road vehicles too with vehicles that barely made sense in the vanilla context with the stars they had, and that are now completely senseless with early start vehicles. I'm not going through a list but just have a look at a vanilla games road vehicles in 1960 and look at some of the trash on both the nato side and soviet side. Some of this is 1932 levels of bad though it has a much later manufacture date.

To me there there should be a holistic rebalancing of everything to properly integrate vehicles in terms of balance between DLC and vanilla and not have cases where its 99 stinker vs 2 good ones.

There is bound to be vehicles there are just plain worse than the rest and I think that's to the game's credit to offer that choice and variety. The issue comes when the choice is just an illusion because you have 1 thing that blows everything out of the water so hard that you keep using it again and again.


Cranes are a good example because it's always the same thing, and so much of it just doesn't see use ever. And it's an approach they seem to have replicated with the DLC as well tbh. It's all well and good to add vehicles but you have to think about how they fit and integrate in your game, its progression and the existing content in a holistic way.

I had a look at the spreadsheet and i'm not sure what you mean by the proposed changes section. Is this something you're suggesting or something that is going to change with updates, i'm slightly confused by the wording used in the youtubes with "intended changes" (and the methodology escapes me as well tbh ^^). edit: oh i think it's a mod you're making

[Sirius Czech]

Hi, Kaia,
videos went out as "general parameters knowledge" in early stages of balancing. Now the balance is in full swing with one train already out - as vanilla buffed OK crane. That´s for the confusion.

The table shows original parameters (upper tab) and new parameters (lower part) with additional information. You can also see the wip dates at the bottom left ;)

All in all - these are coming to vanilla. No mods.

-------
Now regarding road vehicles etc - please keep this thread to RCO trains.

I know your stance of vehicles from many comments around and I somewhat agree usually. Major balancing would be a fine thing. But there are TONS of vehicles, which would make it harder, and more importantly - it does not bother me that much. Yes, having more capacity waste truck in 1940s then in 1960s is not the best and some technical progression does not make sense that much, but it is far beyond my scope here.

I am "just a loud enough player" happening to be able to speak in native tongue with the main developer, so many things are much easier to communicate. And I can well reason for things to get done and willing to make some work myself to improve my play experience. That´s all.

That is, btw, also the place where "better connectivity" thread came from. We like and honor og building creators and vanilla stuff, but we like to change stuff in their building files when we feel like we have better way - hence rotating sidewalks and MECs.

If you have anything towarsd rail cranes and tracklayers (please differentiate), go on :)

[Kubog]

Good news!

Originally posted by Sirius Czech:

Modificator (tracklayers only, hidden): boost to workers (x3 = each worker does triple the work)

Originally posted by Sirius Czech:

No tunnels, no bridges and not even catenary - though they can still build the rail-part of electrified rails, they just won´t go out there for driving poles to the ground in the second phase. Use them with this knowledge and don´t scream in bug forum for this :)

But if you don't want false bug reports than maybe unhide this modificator to prevent confusion?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Seems like a welcome and long needed change.

For most playthroughs, laying the tracks was so far the most grating experience, especially so for 1930 early starts, where I tend to get 2 rail construction offices going as quickly as possible, with up to 8 track builders simultaneously building rather complex rail layouts.

With more potent track builders this would definitely change and make rail tracks not the biggest hindrance for early expansion.

Trains are such an important game mechanic that this change seems long overdue.

Glad to see these changes coming! Good work!

[melkij]

Originally posted by Sirius Czech:

What will not happen automatically is the count of vagons etc. For that one you will need to re-buy the train.

Is it also possible to build a new one at the factory? Blueprint will be updated automatically, right?

[Sirius Czech]

Originally posted by melkij:

Is it also possible to build a new one at the factory? Blueprint will be updated automatically, right?

Correct, they will. Only vehicles currently riding/stored in your save(s) are not visualy changed (similarly to buildings placed before changes in their connection layouts etc.).

[Sirius Czech]

Originally posted by Kubog:

But if you don't want false bug reports than maybe unhide this modificator to prevent confusion?

These modificators were always hidden, or - well - almost nobody knew they existed. But UK-25 was like that always, just nobody seemed to use it because
a) it became available in 1985
b) it had smaller level then EDK300
c) it´s max speed was 20 km/h

Simply nobody was buying it to notice; only few guys doing the wikipage of this game noticed :D

To avoid confusion this very topic serves as a main tool to spread information BEFORE may people encounter it live.

[Kubog]

Originally posted by Sirius Czech:

Originally posted by Kubog:

But if you don't want false bug reports than maybe unhide this modificator to prevent confusion?

These modificators were always hidden, or - well - almost nobody knew they existed.

Yes almost nobody new it existed, because everybody was using EDK.

Originally posted by Sirius Czech:

To avoid confusion this very topic serves as a main tool to spread information BEFORE may people encounter it live.

But come on, did you forgot how many posts people were making asking how to transport tracklayer from CH to RCO, despite pinned threads? You really underestimate peoples' incompetence.
Also now that it will be more important in case of decision making which vehicle you should buy, it's really, really, really bad design choise to hide this information from player and rely solely on one steam thread to provide this information...

[Kubog]

I mean what purpose does hiding this information serve?
To cause more frustration?
To generate more posts like this: https://steamcommunity.com/app/784150/discussions/0/597410286607287994/
?

I really don't see why it was hidden in the first place and now that it will be even more important I really don't see that even more. If someone makes a mistake that is explaned in the game than he can only blame himself, but when someone will buy this tracklayer to build a bridge faster only to find out that it can't do it for some reason and only explanation for this is some burried steam thread post... then sorry but something is really wrong here... Why with every step forward this game has to take two steps back?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Some good points from Kubog. More information needs to be exposed to players in game.

There's a lot of crucial information hidden, that can only be figured out by trial and error.

[Sirius Czech]

Originally posted by Kubog:

I mean what purpose does hiding this information serve?
To cause more frustration?
To generate more posts like this: https://steamcommunity.com/app/784150/discussions/0/597410286607287994/
?

I really don't see why it was hidden in the first place ...

To be fair, it was "not shown". And I understand your frustration. I also have no idea why some things are certain way. As a "player with iniciative", I can only change things in my reach and hopefully persuade devs of their needs.

You know what this game needs? Descriptions/hints. Every building f-in building could use it and some (if not all) vehicles too. Things like

Party HQ: Provides citizens with university education and allows access to some researches and diplomatic arrangements.

Waste truck (big): Collects waste from big container stands

Tracklayer: Specialised rail vehicle for laying tracks, usually faster then universal cranes
Rail crane: Allow building of all types of railway tracks infrastructure
...
We don´t have it. We don´t have lots of things and probably will never have them in this game. All I can do is name them "tracklayers" so they distinguish from the rest of the RCO trains. Over time it somewhat settles down.

Btw playerbase of this game can be incredibly ... thickheaded. And it is not only about new players. As a railway engineer (railway track designer) I am absolutely baffled by what people are doing with rail tracks in this game and then posting angry/sad comments about "why stupid trains don´t work". There could have absolutely been better tutorials, but people are not reading or playing even the ones that ARE in fact in the game. So ... what would help?

I won´t name, but I am watching a pro player on YT who has done multiple guides for this game recently and he still was perplexed why RCO trains get blocked against each other with "?" above them; while not having any return track back besides going "wrong way" on doublesided tracks for almost 1 km and multiple signals, which blocks have obviously been occupied by other trains in the meantime... Some people clearly have no spacial or, more precisely, linear-dependency awareness. At one instance he spent almost 1 minute wondering why a loco that delivered extra vagons to a RDO couldn´t get back to depot. Reason? It cannot magically hop to another track like RDO trains do when spawning and the entrance was one-way with no crossover in sight...
And that is pro-player.

At this point I do not believe that even perfect game knowledge presentations can fix everything. They can not.

That´s why I am educating people here and doing videos and tutorials. Some of them make me a little money from YT, some not. But at least I can send a link instead of writing things all over again.

That is what I can do.

[Sirius Czech]

Originally posted by GrumpyOldMan:

There's a lot of crucial information hidden, that can only be figured out by trial and error.

Not that lot and wiki contains them (will contain them).

There is only one "new" information for players, and that tracklayers EXIST (and cannot do anything else) and that they can have "bonus" modifier to boost their laying speed.

Currently there will be two types of tracklayers:
UK-25 modern one with 5x modifier (super build speed corresponding with its high level)
Br80s for early start (short and long versions) that have <1 modifiers to account for need of handwork in most of tracklaying, but having an option to employ hundred(s) of workers to really boost things up instead.

This is much easier to remember then various heating plants production capabilites, so I believe most players will manage easily and will be able to help the struggling rest ;)

[Kubog]

Originally posted by Sirius Czech:

You know what this game needs? Descriptions/hints. Every building f-in building could use it and some (if not all) vehicles too. Things like

Party HQ: Provides citizens with university education and allows access to some researches and diplomatic arrangements.

Waste truck (big): Collects waste from big container stands

Tracklayer: Specialised rail vehicle for laying tracks, usually faster then universal cranes
Rail crane: Allow building of all types of railway tracks infrastructure

Yes it needs more hints and descriptions, but to this day you still mostely could kind of connect the dots here and there.

• One hidden mechanic that could be explained is that excavators get a debuff in works that could be performed by buldozers. But we kind of fogiven that, because it doesn't prevent it from working and we mostely didn't noticed.
  
• Tunnel boar even though it's the same situation as with trackbuilders we kind of forgiven that, because it's somewhat straight forward.
  
• And that could be said as well for trackbuilders, because only thing that mattered was EDK. But now when trackbuilders will get more recognition there is still basically 0 (ZERO) indication that it will not build bridges/tunnels. But people will buy them, because they are better. And it will cause a lot of chaos and frustration, because they bought something that is not working as they think it should (and there is 0 indication that they should think otherwise).
  
• Another thing is changing electronics production chain ratio, but that's for another thread.

This game overloads player with information he/she must remember, but really shouldn't. I know that it was like this already, but you proven yourself (not only with this post) that you can influence some changes to the game, so I ask you to consider persuading devs to add some indication which vehicle is which.

[Sirius Czech]

Originally posted by Kubog:

This game overloads player with information he/she must remember, but really shouldn't. I know that it was like this already, but you proven yourself (not only with this post) that you can influence some changes to the game, so I ask you to consider persuading devs to add some indication which vehicle is which.

I can tell you one thing - Peter hates to change the code for such things. And as you told - tunneling machine we got easily over with, same as tracklayer that was here for a long time. They will all have the specification in their name, that´s all I can do.

And about hidden/unclear mechanics ... there are a LOT more then you listed. Excavators and electronics changes are just one thing, but can you exactly understand how heating works? How path for power distribution works and how to correctly design and connect a network with 2+ power sources and avoid brownouts somewhere? How crime and police stations work despite it can clearly kill your republic fully when not addressed right? How is it connected with productivity and loyalty?

I could go on and on. There are dozens of issues and unclear mechanics. Which is sort of symbolic and reality-inducing - irl you will not get full picture of everything in a complex system, either (if you don´t believe me, go ask your nearest car resaler/mechanic how they diagnose problems). This game is similar to this.

What I believe is that a thing about what a trackbuilder needs to be communicated and clearly foundable. And I am doing maximum about it.

Will there be a confusion? Yes. Is it preventable? Well, not entirely. Just look at this thread:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/784150/discussions/1/603041689184095064/

With respect to you,

Sirius Czech

[Kubog]

Originally posted by Sirius Czech:

And about hidden/unclear mechanics ... there are a LOT more then you listed.

Yes, I know, these were just examples.

Originally posted by Sirius Czech:

I could go on and on. There are dozens of issues and unclear mechanics. Which is sort of symbolic and reality-inducing - irl you will not get full picture of everything in a complex system, either (if you don´t believe me, go ask your nearest car resaler/mechanic how they diagnose problems). This game is similar to this.

I can agree with that and I can say that personally I like that some of game mechanics are not directly explaned mostelty because as you already stated

Originally posted by Sirius Czech:

irl you will not get full picture of everything

Crime is one of them actually. I don't remeber having problems with crime. I wasn't interested in how crime works in depth. If there is crime there is a demand for police and if I don't provide the police than bad things can happen. It is our duty to be prepared for the unknown, fires, earthquakes, epidemics, price fluctuations etc. But to be prepared you must have at least some basic knowledge/information. Can you imagine prepearing for epidemic and when it finally happens you realise that instead of hospitals, you build fire stations, because game never told you which is which? In depth game mechanics can be explored through trial and error, but basic information should be given on the spot. Distiction between cranes and trackbuilders is one of basic things imo with reasons stated in previous comments and it should not be hidden.

On second thought, maybe naming them "crane/track layer" is not that bad idea actually. As you and I already said the same thing is basically with the tunneling machine.

But it's definitely not the best solution. The game already does good job with standarizing things i.e. with automatic price calculations for vehicles (although that could also be better). We already have distinction between excavators and buldozers, but distinction between trackbuilder and cranes can only be in their names? I always crave for consistency in games, because that's where most confusion can be mitigated. Changing rules in the middle of the game without notifying about it first is were most people get confused and frustrated. I know that at this stage asking for such changes probably won't do much. But at least maybe devs will consider more consistency in their new game?