Auto-Retirement

[mandor1784]

So, I'm a bit frustrated. I've retired 3 of my starting 4, but I have been unable to go back to town and choose when to retire (per the rules of the boardgame).

You should be allowed to sell your items, enhance, then retire. Unfortunately, the moment you hit conditions in the digital version, you are given one button you cannot avoid -- Announce Retirement.

This makes enhancement of cards unnecessarily difficult and expensive (in essence, you need to have ~100 additional gold to be able to enhance, since you can't sell items before your final quest, because that would nerf you.)

Please fix this error, it's making playing the game and the 'excitement' of retirement undesirable.

[Valandryl]

Enchanting cards is lost when you retire. Therefore there's no need to enchant before retiring.

[mandor1784]

Wait. So the enhancements on the cards I did make don't progress to future same class characters?

What's the point? Also. Why another change from the board game?

[Fringehunter7719]

The story doing the rounds is that it was a change approved by Isaac, the board game's designer.

The reasoning, as reported, is that the original persistence of stickers was because they were literal stickers and removing them was impractical, not because it was the design intent. So in digital where this wasn't a limitation it was removed.

But yes, in digital enhancements are lost when you retire so there's no point selling off your gear to buy them immediately before retiring. The trade off is that you can freely sell enhancements back for their purchase price during a character's lifespan, making them much more interchangeable and upgradeable there.

[Mechalibur]

Originally posted by mandor1784:

Wait. So the enhancements on the cards I did make don't progress to future same class characters?

What's the point?

That's like saying what's the point of buying items if the character will eventually be retired. Upgrading your current character's cards is still worth it.

[borisvolodnikov]

The costing on enhancements is kinda bonkers if they are not persistent. I had always assumed they were so expensive in the board game version precisely because they were permanent.

[Magedaddy]

Originally posted by borisvolodnikov:

The costing on enhancements is kinda bonkers if they are not persistent. I had always assumed they were so expensive in the board game version precisely because they were permanent.

They are pretty reasonable, especially given how powerful they are when applied to some cards (curse on dirt tornado, enhance on a bottom heal)

[Fringehunter7719]

Broadly they are ok, but the scaling is probably a bit steep and the starting price on bless/strengthen is probably a bit low.

[wakasm]

The whole thing is silly since it's digital.

Ok game devs... so you don't want enhancements to carry over? Then just add an option when making a fresh new character to do so with no enhancements or to create one with all the enhancements from a previous character like the board game. It's all digital. You can have your cake here and eat it too.

It's not like this change added some balance to prevent people from getting those enhancements anyway... it just makes the whole process more annoying than before. The only real downside with the old way is that if you buy stupid enhancements (or if a previous player has) you are stuck with them (unless you remove the stickers and place new ones). This solves that too.

Having played with people who would retire a character class, just to replay the class immediately after because they liked it so much... I am sure they would hate this change.

A simple checkbox improves everything for everyone here. Fresh or carry over enhancements. Or give classes that retire X amount of money to start with based on how many times it retires (or money exclusely usable for enhancements).

(I'm sure the real reason is some programming silliness, but then don't use the excuse that Isaac blessed this change for no reason).

With this new method... you are now just forced to choose retirement goals that you can avoid or grind even more if you want to really build out the character... again. That's fun gameplay and makes the game better /s

PS. Not related; Also - achievements when?

[ZexxCrine]

Yeah when they made the announcement that enhancements don’t carry over I knew what that meant. Strengthens plus 1s and jumps are all your gonna get mostly. Unless of course you wanna join the new and improved(and significantly more annoying) play scenario 17 a billion times if you ever want to do any meaningful enchantments meta.

[parent child bowl]

As someone that didn't play the board game I don't understand the outrage. The original rule sounds like it adds more imbalance to the game than there already is. Replaying mercenaries seems to be much more powerful than choosing a new one in the board game. Sounds like terrible design tbh.

In that context the statement that Isaac only made enhancements permanent because he had to sounds more than reasonable.

[Valandryl]

Originally posted by parent child bowl:

As someone that didn't play the board game I don't understand the outrage. The original rule sounds like it adds more imbalance to the game than there already is. Replaying mercenaries seems to be much more powerful than choosing a new one in the board game. Sounds like terrible design tbh.

In that context the statement that Isaac only made enhancements permanent because he had to sounds more than reasonable.

Exactly. This is exactly why removing enchantments is necessary when you retire : if you don't, everyone's just gonna play the same class forever and the game will become stupid easy.

[dbemont]

I think that people are upset because this was one of the really fun things in the game, in effect "leveling up" the character class when one of your characters retired. It was novel and fit well with the persistent world of Gloomhaven.

Yes, this rule might have originated in the practical matter of stickers not being removable, but it turned out to be one of the signature features of the game, a moment that players almost universally looked forward to.

(The digital game innately avoids the one problem with the system in tabletop -- What if some day I or another family member want to start a whole new game from scratch, without the enhancements? Digital would do this automatically, without ditching the retirement enhancements.)

[SaltyTaro]

Originally posted by Valandryl:

Originally posted by parent child bowl:

As someone that didn't play the board game I don't understand the outrage. The original rule sounds like it adds more imbalance to the game than there already is. Replaying mercenaries seems to be much more powerful than choosing a new one in the board game. Sounds like terrible design tbh.

In that context the statement that Isaac only made enhancements permanent because he had to sounds more than reasonable.

Exactly. This is exactly why removing enchantments is necessary when you retire : if you don't, everyone's just gonna play the same class forever and the game will become stupid easy.

My group used enchanted characters for replaying missions on harder difficulties in casual, but since casual is removed from the digital game I don't see it as much of an issue.

[wakasm]

Originally posted by Valandryl:

Exactly. This is exactly why removing enchantments is necessary when you retire : if you don't, everyone's just gonna play the same class forever and the game will become stupid easy.

The game is already pretty easy at it's core... especially once you unlock a few key items or skills per class anyway. It's not designed to be a hard random roguelike with infinite replayability like say - Slay the Spire. It's designed to be a power fantasy campaign-like LEGACY game that grows with you as you play. Even more, it plays more like a puzzle than anything, and puzzles are pretty solvable most of the time.

The enhancement aspect was one important aspect of it's Legacy DNA. I don't know how much you've played the game... but I'd be curious to know your thoughts after you've completed most of the base content and unlocked all the classes.

The main reason as to why it's fairly easy or (at least for the board game) is that the puzzle part of the AI is pretty solvable/gameable with a lot of ways to abuse their stupidity. Especially if you are following the rules as they were designed. About 50% of the challenge of Gloomhaven then becomes understanding what the enemy will do and how you can react... and then it can be very trivial, with the exception of a few scenarios or mob types, to ensure a win, even with weaker characters/items. It's very winnable with all classes.

Both groups I played the actual board game with had something like a 80-90% win rate, with most losses occurring in those first few scenarios, the few notable difficult ones, or either learning the game or until you unlock a few basic items. This was with increasing the difficulty for most of the scenarios later on to speed up gold acquisition, etc. etc. One group completed the campaign and the other fizzed out about halfway through.

All the new players who think it's way too hard at the start of that challenge curve and it takes longer for some than others... but I guarantee that some majority of people who stick with the game will eventually find it rather on the easier side as long as they learn how the AI works. At least on normal difficulties.

The game (can) be fairly boring at that point if challenge is all you are looking for... but having the ability to dabble in late-game powers and push broken mechanics and combinations is a ton of fun on it's own even if it lacks the same challenge. BOTH styles of play are fun. If you stick with the game for a long time you've earned the right to be powerful. Very similar to Diablo / Path of Exile / or even many CRPGs where sometimes having broken powers is just as fun as the challenging ramp up to getting there.

(of note - I haven't read up or played enough digitally yet to know how much of the AI rules they incorporated, but I haven't read anything to make me believe this aspect has changed much. I plan to change this soon I just haven't had the time).

Plus - if you haven't played the board game, keep in mind, it's pretty common for non-solo board gamers to get a game to table MAYBE 10 times on average a year, if that.

It's very common for gaming groups to only meet one or two times a month... to play a game 2-3 times, move onto another game. I am sure there are some that meet weekly or more frequently, but I don't think those are the majority. Campaign and Legacy games often are the exception and often at least get their full campaign played, but that mostly comes at a promise of that it ends at some point. (Pandemic Legacy for instance is anywhere from 12-24 game sessions then you are done).

Retiring in the board game was more like a checkpoint, something you could return to if you wanted to but most often, people didn't, or if they did, they still hadn't unlocked even 75% of the powers since it takes a long time to earn the gold to do so.

Digital players mostly can burn through what might take a real life group a year in a month or less. The game plays faster, setup is faster, you don't have rules overhead to follow, etc. Even with this advantage, pulling out the enhancement carry over as an option still removes a huge legacy aspect.

While there are extremes on both ends... there definitely are NOT a ton of in-person groups who would be willing to replay scenarios just to grind gold, etc to explore the later expensive powers nor are there many that would replay the game that often with the current enhancement rules.

Obviously, there are some exceptions... but statistically... the amount of people who get the game to the table, finish the campaign, and then keep playing beyond the campaign that is probably way lower than you think. I'd guess less than 1% of all those who play Gloomhaven. Unless they made it the only game they play (like people who only play Catan).

I mention this because this means that the enhancements being permanent was a real positive for many people in that scenario. The only real downside being those who played the same copy in multiple groups and/or disliked what previous enhancements people took, which digital can solve both.

That said - the board game you were encouraged to change rules however you wanted, whereas, digitally, you cannot, hence, why it's worse here (although mods exist, so this one day will eventually only affect achievements, probably).

[Valandryl]

Originally posted by wakasm:

Originally posted by Valandryl:

Exactly. This is exactly why removing enchantments is necessary when you retire : if you don't, everyone's just gonna play the same class forever and the game will become stupid easy.

The game is already pretty easy at it's core... especially once you unlock a few key items or skills per class anyway. It's not designed to be a hard random roguelike with infinite replayability like say - Slay the Spire. It's designed to be a power fantasy campaign-like LEGACY game that grows with you as you play. Even more, it plays more like a puzzle than anything, and puzzles are pretty solvable most of the time.

The enhancement aspect was one important aspect of it's Legacy DNA. I don't know how much you've played the game... but I'd be curious to know your thoughts after you've completed most of the base content and unlocked all the classes.

The main reason as to why it's fairly easy or (at least for the board game) is that the puzzle part of the AI is pretty solvable/gameable with a lot of ways to abuse their stupidity. Especially if you are following the rules as they were designed. About 50% of the challenge of Gloomhaven then becomes understanding what the enemy will do and how you can react... and then it can be very trivial, with the exception of a few scenarios or mob types, to ensure a win, even with weaker characters/items. It's very winnable with all classes.

Both groups I played the actual board game with had something like a 80-90% win rate, with most losses occurring in those first few scenarios, the few notable difficult ones, or either learning the game or until you unlock a few basic items. This was with increasing the difficulty for most of the scenarios later on to speed up gold acquisition, etc. etc. One group completed the campaign and the other fizzed out about halfway through.

All the new players who think it's way too hard at the start of that challenge curve and it takes longer for some than others... but I guarantee that some majority of people who stick with the game will eventually find it rather on the easier side as long as they learn how the AI works. At least on normal difficulties.

The game (can) be fairly boring at that point if challenge is all you are looking for... but having the ability to dabble in late-game powers and push broken mechanics and combinations is a ton of fun on it's own even if it lacks the same challenge. BOTH styles of play are fun. If you stick with the game for a long time you've earned the right to be powerful. Very similar to Diablo / Path of Exile / or even many CRPGs where sometimes having broken powers is just as fun as the challenging ramp up to getting there.

(of note - I haven't read up or played enough digitally yet to know how much of the AI rules they incorporated, but I haven't read anything to make me believe this aspect has changed much. I plan to change this soon I just haven't had the time).

Plus - if you haven't played the board game, keep in mind, it's pretty common for non-solo board gamers to get a game to table MAYBE 10 times on average a year, if that.

It's very common for gaming groups to only meet one or two times a month... to play a game 2-3 times, move onto another game. I am sure there are some that meet weekly or more frequently, but I don't think those are the majority. Campaign and Legacy games often are the exception and often at least get their full campaign played, but that mostly comes at a promise of that it ends at some point. (Pandemic Legacy for instance is anywhere from 12-24 game sessions then you are done).

Retiring in the board game was more like a checkpoint, something you could return to if you wanted to but most often, people didn't, or if they did, they still hadn't unlocked even 75% of the powers since it takes a long time to earn the gold to do so.

Digital players mostly can burn through what might take a real life group a year in a month or less. The game plays faster, setup is faster, you don't have rules overhead to follow, etc. Even with this advantage, pulling out the enhancement carry over as an option still removes a huge legacy aspect.

While there are extremes on both ends... there definitely are NOT a ton of in-person groups who would be willing to replay scenarios just to grind gold, etc to explore the later expensive powers nor are there many that would replay the game that often with the current enhancement rules.

Obviously, there are some exceptions... but statistically... the amount of people who get the game to the table, finish the campaign, and then keep playing beyond the campaign that is probably way lower than you think. I'd guess less than 1% of all those who play Gloomhaven. Unless they made it the only game they play (like people who only play Catan).

I mention this because this means that the enhancements being permanent was a real positive for many people in that scenario. The only real downside being those who played the same copy in multiple groups and/or disliked what previous enhancements people took, which digital can solve both.

That said - the board game you were encouraged to change rules however you wanted, whereas, digitally, you cannot, hence, why it's worse here (although mods exist, so this one day will eventually only affect achievements, probably).

First of all I thank you for your concern. I played the bg campaign twice, unlocked all classes and played most of them till retirement. And that's exactly why I'm saying that persistent enchantments are completely broken.
On our First run, a friend understood why and how keeping the same class after each retirement was OP and that's what he did. After his 3rd retirement, we asked him to stop because it ruined our fun, having an OP average lvl character, and it also killed the whole point of the game : the legacy aspect.

Because the most fun part of the bg is unsealing boxes. Discovering and using new stuff. But why would you use anything new if you're stronger when you don't change class ?

All in all I understand why some people like persistent enchantments, they make the game much easier. But it still makes more sense to remove enchantments when you retire. And it helps keep some balance on the game. Because trust me, having a permanent cursenado character in the roster quickly removes all the fun.