Winter Voices

Winter Voices

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Pyre Princess achievement - HOW?!
I think I've hit the point in the game where it not telling you anything is really starting to become a burden.

How on earth are you supposed to defeat your shadow in 10 turns when it takes 4½ blasts of Wildfire to bring down its 50,000 energy and the only way to do full damage is to use Crack to dispel all the Lesser Oblivion (-50% damage) and Sphere of Negation (-75% damage) she makes sure to keep on you at all times... and Crack has a 5 turn cooldown?

The math for that makes it impossible to do, unless by some miracle you dodge all of her attacks! (And that must be an astronomical chance to do).

It feels like you're supposed to keep her PP down to prevent hitting you with those, but the game doesn't tell you what her abilities cost in the first place and the most accessible forms of reducing PP (empowered Repel) are disabled by Pyre Princess mode.

Failing that, staying out of range just isn't an option because it seems to be at least 9 and you need to be within 4 to hit her with Wildfire.

I've just redone half the chapter to choose different skills in the hopes that Heroine's 100% dispel resistance protects you from it, but that didn't help. In the character screen it also put that 100% to a stat called "Dissipation" instead. What do Dissipation and Flaw actually do?

Honestly stumped. And all that Cymmina guide has to say on the subject is "you should have no trouble doing this in 10 turns". Was this patched to become impossible or something?
Last edited by Miraglyth; Mar 18 @ 5:31pm
Originally posted by cthulhu985:
Oh, wait, what's your fourth Pyre Princess skill? I totally forgot it depends on previous choices.
If it's not Inner Fire, the achievement might be really almost impossible.

Though if you can get enough PP, you might still get it. There should be a couple of skill which increase it.
What's the PP on your build?
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Showing 1-15 of 16 comments
A minor rewind to get Absence seems to help... she stands next to the absence not harming that instead, but she still throws a Major Oblivion every other turn.

Breaking it down... Major Oblivion seems to be the same one on the outermost ring (OP much?) meaning it costs 10 PP and has a range of 200. Even with an Absence's Void Walk (-2 PP) and summoning the Crow (-2 PP again) she cannot be prevented from using it when she regenerates her PP to 15 every turn. She seems to use it every 2 to 3 turns.

Major Oblivion stacks 2 turns of Lesser Oblivion (-50% damage for 2 turns) on you every time it lands. You need to hit her with Wildfire, if planned right, 4 times which should be enough with the damage from Burn (if you're not suffering form Lesser Oblivion too much) and its damage over time.

When the battle starts, if you save your MP from the previous encounter right, you can hit her with three Burn and a Wildfire on turn 2. That leaves 8 turns to do so again 3 more times while usually under the effects of Lesser Oblivion. If you get enough PP to use both Crack and Wildfire on turn 4 (doubtful since Major Oblivion also tanks PP), it would be ready to use again by turn 9... so you would need to be incredibly lucky enough to not be hit by Major Oblivion up to turn 6 to hit her with a third unhindered Wildfire!

That seems borderline insane. I can't help but think there's meant to be a way to prevent being affected by Lesser Oblivion altogether, but nothing in the skills list claims to accomplish that.
Reading the Cymmina guide once more, the following line caught my attention:

You can safely ignore using Crack to dispel the Oblivion effect on you, unless you have plenty of EP to spend.

So it was once possible to defeat the shadow in 10 turns even with Oblivion? That seems insane now. Wildfire with a 50% damage penalty only does 5,000 damage. Even with Crack you'd need to use it almost every turn with three burns to do enough damage, and that would require a whopping 22 PP each turn which seems impossible at least for Episode 3 (by other numbers on Cymmina's site).

Even if it was possible, it certainly wouldn't be "no trouble".

I've read bits of text on this forum while digging for information which suggests the Pyre Princess skills were nerfed. Is it possible they've been nerfed severely, to the point of rendering this once-easy task incredibly difficult?
cthulhu985 Mar 19 @ 11:53am 
I haven't played this battle in ages, but I tried it just now, and burned the shadow in 7 turns without any trouble.

What's your build?
Miraglyth Mar 19 @ 12:35pm 
Hi there, thanks for replying!

Broadly: Huntress level 16, after bonuses 75 Humor, 150 Will Power, 35 Memory, 110 Perspacity, 80 Charisma, 180 Intuition. Skills up to the second ring of Social, Pride and Metamorph.

7 turns seems totally unthinkable for me with what I've experienced: Let me list a few observations and if any of these don't match what's happening with you it might point me towards what the big difference is:

- Burn costs 4 PP per use and does 480 to 880 damage with no Lesser Oblivion or Sphere of Negation, obviously much less with it, and if a Burn is present on the shadow it does 100 per turn as well.
- Wildfire costs 10 PP and does 1,500 + 3,000 * (number of Burn on target up to 3) which means 10,500 when not impeded by Lesser Oblivion or Sphere of Negation.
- The shadow uses Major Oblivion every 2 to 3 turns with apparently unlimited range; it doesn't matter if you have an ally for the shadow to attack, this hits you anyway and always gives Lesser Oblivion (-50% damage for 2 turns) even if you dodge the damage.
- If you do not have an ally to take its attention, the shadow also enjoys hitting you with Sphere of Negation (-75% damage for 2? turns).
- 100% Dispel / Dissipation resistance does not stop either Lesser Oblivion or Sphere of Negation.
Last edited by Miraglyth; Mar 19 @ 12:36pm
The author of this thread has indicated that this post answers the original topic.
Oh, wait, what's your fourth Pyre Princess skill? I totally forgot it depends on previous choices.
If it's not Inner Fire, the achievement might be really almost impossible.

Though if you can get enough PP, you might still get it. There should be a couple of skill which increase it.
What's the PP on your build?
I was thinking about that. Inner Fire instantly applies three burns to you and the shadow but has a high enough cooldown that it can only be used once in the achievement, right?

I haven't seen anything that says you can cure your own burns and all of my healing skills appear to be disabled in that fight so I figured that would be fatal but Pyre Princess dramatically increases regeneration, right?

My PP... the menu says 13. I'll check how much it gets in battle and each turn soon but I'm right in thinking that 22 isn't possible? Especially not when the shadow's Oblivion enjoys reducing it by 5.

In 7 turns how many Wildfire do you hit it with? Are they all without any Lesser Oblivion in effect?

Separately, it seems that part of the fight totally resets my statuses unlike some previous parts where they carry over. This means I can't bring in 2-3 extra MP from Flight to allow a second-turn Wildfire. Are you able to hit it with a Wildfire on turn 2 and how do you get the extra MP needed for that?

Edit - Forgot to answer the question. My optional skill is the Adventurer one for extra MP, but using it costs enough PP that I couldn't get in a second turn Wildfire anyway so it's not helpful in this instance.
Last edited by Miraglyth; Mar 19 @ 4:07pm
Originally posted by Miraglyth:
I was thinking about that. Inner Fire instantly applies three burns to you and the shadow but has a high enough cooldown that it can only be used once in the achievement, right?
That's Blaze.
Inner Fire removes PP cost next time you use a fire ability. It's the Stranger ability.
It has cooldown of 3 turns, so basically gives you a free Wildfire use every third turn.

Yeah, my saved build has 13 PP, too. Meaning on each turn you get 13 + half of the remaining PP, so you can get up to 25, but as you noticed this is reset at the beginning of this stage.
My build has "To the Fore" which is ridiculously overpowered (in this video I just bypass killing the shadow) and allows me to walk basically anywhere in one turn, but that's not really neccessary here.

Theoretically, 12 PP at the start of each turn can be enough: 3 x Burn on one turn, 1 x Wildifre on the next, but then you must somehow avoid or dispell all attacks by the shadow.
Waiting, Rebound and other skills which either reduce the shadow's PP (you'll be hit with Oblivion anyway, it has no PP cost, but Lesser Oblivion costs 8 PP) and/or move you away might help.
Maybe high Dodge can help, but I'm not sure you can dodge Oblivion.
Originally posted by cthulhu985:
Inner Fire removes PP cost next time you use a fire ability. It's the Stranger ability. It has cooldown of 3 turns, so basically gives you a free Wildfire use every third turn.

Yep, sorry, just returned to a computer to check Cymmina again.

...hold on though. Cymmina says that Inner Fire itself costs 10 PP, so how is that any benefit? Instead of spending 10 PP to use Wildfire directly you spend it on the ability to use Wildfire for free? Ultimately it's the same cost?

Originally posted by cthulhu985:
My build has "To the Fore" which is ridiculously overpowered

I didn't realise there was a Winter Voices video for this part - I did a quick search, which is as always impeded by both words being prominent in songs - but didn't see this. It's really interesting you got the benefit from To the Fore at the start of that part when normally everything is reset. At a glance I don't understand how you got so much MP in the first part either.

I'll study that a bit more but since I just caught your post as it was made I wanted to reply quickly to try to catch you while you were here!

Originally posted by cthulhu985:
but then you must somehow avoid or dispell all attacks by the shadow.

That's my problem for sure. Avoiding doesn't seem possible - Major Oblivion seems to always hit you with the cripping Lesser Oblivion effect even if you dodge the damage (side note, how does that even make sense?) - and there seems to be no means to prevent or dispel negative status effects besides Crack which has too much of a cooldown to help that much for the task.

Originally posted by cthulhu985:
Waiting, Rebound and other skills which either reduce the shadow's PP (you'll be hit with Oblivion anyway, it has no PP cost, but Lesser Oblivion costs 8 PP) and/or move you away might help.

I can kite the shadow with Burn, but you have to get close to hit it with Wildfire so you'll eat a status that way, and that only works until it uses Major Oblivion.

The shadow's Lesser costs 8 PP? It has 15, so I'd have to reduce it by 8! That's downright crazy. I can do 4 (Crow and one ability) but my other ability with PP reduction is lost to Pyre Princess.
So, I've worked out Inner Fire is FEUINT in the files... and that says its cost is 0. I've been deceived!

Still, it would be very strange for this to require a choice made the whole chapter ago. Maybe I was mistaken about carrying MP through to the Pyre Princess part, and screwed up bringing in extra. If I can bring in a fourth MP for turn 1 I think I can nail it with a turn 2 Wildfire, at the cost of eating a Lesser Oblivion. I wonder if I can then burn it three times on turn 3 and run, and Wildfire it again on turn 5 when the Oblivion wears off (if I can stay out of range and it doesn't use Major or can't catch up in 4 turns which it probably can...) and then...

...sheesh. I just can't see how this is doable without Inner Fire. Why did that guide say it was so easy or not mention what appears to be a mandatory skill?!
Originally posted by Miraglyth:
Cymmina says that Inner Fire itself costs 10 PP
Must be a typo. It has zero cost.


Originally posted by Miraglyth:
It's really interesting you got the benefit from To the Fore at the start of that part when normally everything is reset. At a glance I don't understand how you got so much MP in the first part either.
I think the buffs, both positive and negative, aren't reset at each stage, only the 'native' PP and MP.
"To the Fore" acts a bit strange, but, basically, I'm hit by all Blizzards in range twice, and each hit adds 2 MPs. Then half of the MPs from the previous turn are retained, and, well, that what it looks like. The bigger problem is not to die from all those hits. :D

Originally posted by Miraglyth:
Still, it would be very strange for this to require a choice made the whole chapter ago.
There're several achievements that you won't get without making certain choices or specific character build.
They aren't called achievements for nothing. :D

Originally posted by Miraglyth:
Why did that guide say it was so easy or not mention what appears to be a mandatory skill?!
Eh, I don't know what build Cymmina used. I believe the guide was written some time ago and not updated much.

I think you could create a build that has enough PP to kill shadow without Inner Fire, but you'll probably have to work towards that from the beginning. Though such a build got to be powerful in other battles, too.
Originally posted by cthulhu985:
"To the Fore" acts a bit strange, but, basically, I'm hit by all Blizzards in range twice, and each hit adds 2 MPs. Then half of the MPs from the previous turn are retained, and, well, that what it looks like.

Hmm... on examination it looks like the blizzards attack you three times each? Sheesh! 2 blizzards * 3 attacks * 2 MP for each = 12 + 3 for the turn = 15 as the video shows.

To get the best out of that you surely need to balance Will Power and Mitigation so you take over 10% of your energy every attack. That sounds like a tough thing to accomplish but clearly rewarding with the Speed upgrade.

Originally posted by cthulhu985:
There're several achievements that you won't get without making certain choices or specific character build. They aren't called achievements for nothing. :D

Yeah... for having its difficulty dismissed so (especially when many of the previous achievement tasks got quite comprehensive explanations), it's just caught me by a lot of surprise.

I skipped the hard route in the Seid, but besides that I'm pretty sure this will be the first achievement task in the game that more or less requires one specific skill, and it's a choice-dependent one rather than one you can just rewind a battle and spend a skill point on. It... sucks a bit :/

Originally posted by cthulhu985:
Eh, I don't know what build Cymmina used. I believe the guide was written some time ago and not updated much.

I also hear tell that the Pyre Princess abilities were nerfed? If for instance Wildfire was once capable of dealing 15,000 damage (e.g. 3,000 + 4,000 per stacked Burn) then it would be severely more doable without Inner Fire than it is now, since you'd only need to land 3 full power Wildfire.

I just get the sense that this once wasn't such a challenge and that it's an unintended victim of a balance adjustment provided by a later episode.

Originally posted by cthulhu985:
I think you could create a build that has enough PP to kill shadow without Inner Fire, but you'll probably have to work towards that from the beginning. Though such a build got to be powerful in other battles, too.

Yeah, I don't have a PP focus. It's never been that much of an issue before. I can't even recall being hit by Oblivion before this fight, it's devastating.
Last edited by Miraglyth; Mar 19 @ 6:09pm
Originally posted by Miraglyth:
Hmm... on examination it looks like the blizzards attack you three times each? Sheesh! 2 blizzards * 3 attacks * 2 MP for each = 12 + 3 for the turn = 15 as the video shows.

To get the best out of that you surely need to balance Will Power and Mitigation so you take over 10% of your energy every attack. That sounds like a tough thing to accomplish but clearly rewarding with the Speed upgrade.
3 blizzards * 2 attacks, actually, but same result.

It doesn't in fact require careful balancing, at least for this battle: my build here is a Max Memory Volva with mitigation -116% (yes, that's a minus) and 10 absorption. It's very fragile, but here the enemies are weak and stationary, so I get hit just hard enough. Some other battles require more effort, and there are battles where there's just not enough space to run away, so "To the Fore" doesn't help much.
Originally posted by Miraglyth:
I also hear tell that the Pyre Princess abilities were nerfed?
Could be, though I don't remember anything about it.
Also it could be that Cymmina wrote this part about the achievement being easy just after playing through this battle with Inner Fire and not realising it's path-dependent, and didn't correct it after.
Last edited by cthulhu985; Mar 20 @ 1:14pm
Alright. Well with that concluded I'll probably have to abandon it this character. If I'm going to need to repeat the entirety of episode 3 I may as well make a different character for one of the other class playthroughs and repeat the other episodes too.
If you don't mind a bit of cheating you can just edit the save and set $shvi_choice$ to "E".
Then you'll have Inner Fire as fourth skill.
I do mind. :happymeat:
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