Imbalance between Pyromancer and Ranger

[eisen]

Hi, I am new to the game but not new to roguelikes (Angband, CDDA and several roguelites).

I played the first two contracts with every class to see what I want to play with and I would prefer a ranged build so I focused on Pyromancer and Ranger.
Unfortunately, I encountered several disadvantages from the Ranger compared to the Pyro:
- he has to carry ammo, pyro doesn't and Power regens fairly quickly
- Pyro's spells are auto hits, whereas Ranger's shots usually miss if he doesn't take the Aim action -> this means that Pyro can shoot and back off until CD reset, Ranger has less time because his aim+attack takes two actions
- even with Take Aim, the shot can still miss
- when the enemy is one tile away, the Pyro can keep kiting and get one more shot in, ranger has to get out his melee weapon by then which takes a turn
- in melee, Pyro has the very strong Ring of Fire spell which deals guaranteed damage in a big area again whereas the Ranger only gets his Distracting Shot at lvl one, which usually misses and only dashes two tiles so he can either take one unaimed shot and switch back to melee or take one aimed shot but then has one turn with the enemy in his face with no melee weapon out
- burning ticks for higher dmg compared to bleeding from the Ranger's arrows, meaning more enemies get into melee distance before dying

At the moment, the Pyro is the superior ranged class early on and the early game as Pyro is incredibly easy whereas Ranger doesn't allow a single misstep. The Ranger has to work harder for less or equal outcome.
I can't judge the mid-late game yet but these glaring disadvantages don't make it very alluring to even try with the Ranger. The Pyro will also progress and I doubt that it will even out.

Is there any balancing planned or is the ranger just deemed the tougher build to play as? Or is my judgement completely off, maybe I am missing something obvious.

TL;DR: Pyro > Ranger in almost every way. Ranger has to work harder for equal damage and spells being guaranteed hits makes the Ranger a very unattractive ranged option early on.

[laveley]

Game is in early access. Yes skill trees aren't balanced, neither you should expect they are before the final version.

Tbh since this is a single player game, my only whish is thst all trees are viable, no reason to them have the same power potential.

[Larus]

Well, at the end both feel more powerful than any melee build. They're cheapter too, those armor repair cost outweigh any amount of arrows.

[Owlie]

Wait till you see the damage output on geomancer lmao

[eisen]

Originally posted by laveley:

Game is in early access. Yes skill trees aren't balanced, neither you should expect they are before the final version.

Tbh since this is a single player game, my only whish is thst all trees are viable, no reason to them have the same power potential.

I have seen balanced early access titles before, it's not impossible. I wasn't expecting anything, too just asking wether my observation is correct. Also feedback like mine should be more valuable during EA.

Originally posted by Larus:

Well, at the end both feel more powerful than any melee build. They're cheapter too, those armor repair cost outweigh any amount of arrows.

Ah I see. A lot of work to be done.

Originally posted by Owlie:

Wait till you see the damage output on geomancer lmao

Is it high?



I played Dirwin some more and found a few things to help his early game:
Take Aim and Daggers -> Quick Hands solves one of the turn management problems.
And instead of kiting/running away I just stand my ground -> aim and shoot until they're close and then switch to dagger.
This basically forced me out of my pure Ranger role but it's currently not viable any other way.

With further content like stealth, crafting for poisons/traps and maybe a rework it can happen though. Something like an immobilizing shot would make pure Bow very good I think.

[sn0w0ldier]

Bear traps, caltrops and capture nets

[FlyinPancake]

Read athletics tree. Anyone struggling with ranged should try out leg sweep ability, it's infinite kite. And yeah, I love switching to dagger for double lunge which resets on kill so I can swiftly finish an entire group that I got low with ranged abilities.

[Og-the-Trog]

There's no need to keep builds "balanced", just *viable*.
This isn't a multiplayer game where people actively flood the "meta" build and make the game boring for eachother due to the need to compete.
It's a single player game, where variety in build flavor and difficulty is *great* for replayability, and if you're having trouble making your ranger build work maybe you could dip into pyro for a few levels. It's up to you what you have the most fun with.

-e
Btw Athletics has a 'Dash' feat, 'Leg Sweep' as others have pointed out, and 'Sprint Training' if you dive deep into the tree.

Pyro and Geomancy are considered "Easy mode" at the moment, and the devs have said they'll be revamped when they get to the big magic update a ways down the road.

[@xaker89]

1. Pyro consume hunger and thirst meter every time he/she cast the spell
2. Pyro can hit objects as well and miss
3. Pyro is struggling when there is a rainy day
4. Pyro burn animal skins and can burn weapons, items, loot, etc.
And i probably miss something for sure.

[Rak]

Ranged characters are OP imo they can kite all enemies to oblivion not to mention traps, nets and swarm jars help them more than melee characters

[laveley]

Originally posted by eisen:

Originally posted by laveley:

Game is in early access. Yes skill trees aren't balanced, neither you should expect they are before the final version.

Tbh since this is a single player game, my only whish is thst all trees are viable, no reason to them have the same power potential.

I have seen balanced early access titles before, it's not impossible. I wasn't expecting anything, too just asking wether my observation is correct. Also feedback like mine should be more valuable during EA.

I Never said it was impossible.

You shared your opinion at the subject and i shared mine. Magic builds in this game always been the most powerful ones for over 2 years now. Your feedback is valid, but its a well known issue already.

[Psojed]

Yes, Pyromancers have a big advantage compared to Ranged on current version. There is a Fatigue system planned, which will limit the amount of spell usage. But right now you can fire spell after spell as long as you have the energy for it.

Originally posted by eisen:

- Pyro's spells are auto hits, whereas Ranger's shots usually miss if he doesn't take the Aim action -> this means that Pyro can shoot and back off until CD reset, Ranger has less time because his aim+attack takes two actions
- even with Take Aim, the shot can still miss

Fire Barrage can miss too, as others have already pointed out.
You are correct on the turn economy in the early game.
In the mid-to-late game, you can acquire enough accuracy to eliminate the need for using Take Aim.

Originally posted by eisen:

- when the enemy is one tile away, the Pyro can keep kiting and get one more shot in, ranger has to get out his melee weapon by then which takes a turn

You can keep shooting in melee range aswell.
But mainly, as pure ranger, you shouldn't let enemies come into your melee range.
There are also ways to counteract this, for example free weapon swap from the Dagger tree, using traps, clever positioning, etc.

Originally posted by eisen:

- in melee, Pyro has the very strong Ring of Fire spell which deals guaranteed damage in a big area again whereas the Ranger only gets his Distracting Shot at lvl one, which usually misses and only dashes two tiles so he can either take one unaimed shot and switch back to melee or take one aimed shot but then has one turn with the enemy in his face with no melee weapon out

Distracting Shot is not a melee skill. If you only used Distracting shot with enemy in melee range, you're doing it wrong. Use it on cooldown when enemies advance 1-2 tiles into your range, to keep them at the far edge of your range.

Originally posted by eisen:

- burning ticks for higher dmg compared to bleeding from the Ranger's arrows, meaning more enemies get into melee distance before dying

Ranger's arrows or skills don't guarantee bleeding, so this is an invalid comparison.
The mechanic associated with Ranged is Knockback (for crossbows) and Immobilization (for bows), both of these provide you with extra turns to shoot.

PS:

Originally posted by eisen:

I played Dirwin some more and found a few things to help his early game:
Take Aim and Daggers -> Quick Hands solves one of the turn management problems.
And instead of kiting/running away I just stand my ground -> aim and shoot until they're close and then switch to dagger.
This basically forced me out of my pure Ranger role but it's currently not viable any other way.

This isn't true. I played a pure ranger before City of Gold patch, I have a video of slaying the troll and I started another Ranger on current patch where I already cleared the first dungeon.

[CKBO3b XAOC]

The shooter is a strong enough class. I advise you to try to equip 2 cursed items of bloodlust. They consume HP, but 2 items pose no threat. Each will give +14 critical hit chance. Together with the skills, it will give a high chance of a critical hit.
Why is it important? With a critical hit, the enemy is usually immobilized. He also starts bleeding. In the later stages of the game, it's a good idea to combine classes by adding tasty abilities))

[funkmonster7]

Honestly, bows are not good in the early game at the moment. But late game, they're deadly. You have the longest range in the game, and you crit like a beast on steroids. If you use crossbow but apply Taking Aim, you can one-shot or two-shot tons of enemies.

I believe crossbows don't have that insane bow penalty with the 1 or 2 tiles thing... Not sure about that, as I usually swap to melee weapons when enemies get into that range.

[Og-the-Trog]

Originally posted by eisen:

In the mid-to-late game, you can acquire enough accuracy to eliminate the need for using Take Aim.


[snip]

This isn't true. I played a pure ranger before City of Gold patch, I have a video of slaying the troll

I've found in the current patch you never gain enough accuracy to get out from under the yoke of Take Aim. Eventually you'll have a *chance* of hitting without it, but it's still better to Aim. Maybe if you can get a bunch of +Acc enchants that might be possible (if those are a thing).

Also I'm curious how you out-damaged the healing and am too lazy to find your vid, if you can spare a sentence for that. Did you just bring 5 quivers of arrows and swap to broadheads once his armor was gone?

[DacianDraco]

Originally posted by Og-the-Trog:

Not that anyone asked me, but this is how i did it. And yes, had 3 quivers but for Crossbow less than 2 was enough, Broadhead bolts of course, for arrows i had just Leaf-Shaped.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/625960/discussions/0/3195862342474713270/#c3195862342481775449
And this mentions my skills used too when i asked other guy how he did it https://steamcommunity.com/app/625960/discussions/0/3195862342474713270/#c3195862342481497259