Planned feature: Permadeath

[Dynamoon]

Give feedback here about the planned Permadeath game mode, introduced in our blog post: https://barotraumagame.com/gameplay-features/sneak-peek-and-poll-permadeath/

Please read the post and the Permadeath designs presented in it before commenting, and don't forget to answer the poll linked in the blog post as well!

[Benoz, Il Dio Drago Drugo Fieroh]

I read and completed the poll. Out of the 3 options I like "Wait it out" the most. However I think that an even better option would be the following:

When you die you lose your character. Upon death the host (even if dead) can choose from a pop-up menu to either wait and respawn the character in the next round or shuttle spawn now for an additional pricey fee (I don't know, maybe 5000 to 10,000 marks). In both cases the player get sent to a character creation screen where they can edit name (maybe not the exact same name of the dead character), appearance and job plus the ability to buy up to as many skill and talent points (or the corresponding amount of EXP points) as the old character had. Skill and talent points must obviously be bought with increasingly higher amounts of money (ex.: 1st talent point=800 marks, 2nd=900 marks, et cetera). When the player gets the authorization from the host to spend X amount of money for the new character they'll respawn as previously chose.

This would definitely be the option I would actually like playing with, otherwise I will keep on using Reaper's Tax (or what will come) which is still a pretty annoying debuff.

[kuku]

"Reincarnate" is by far the best, don't have a google account so can't vote in forms. The problem with "Wait it out" is that if you're playing optimally, that means, picking up 3 or more quests per round, a player who died early might spectate for a little too long. 2) can be implemented alongside 1) or 3), and you would probably just generate a character, instead of putting effort into a new one.

Another thing to be addressed since the discussion is about dying, since death is not that consequential in barotrauma, the devs should consider making permadeath the default, instead of opt-in, as to add an extra spice to dying. This would of course involve some restructuring. As a min-maxing player, the first thing it comes to mind is dying on purpose in order to switch to a better character, specially in the beggining.

[Henry]

"REINCARNATE" HAS THE MOST FUN POTENTIAL BUT I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY SOME PLAYERS AND CAMPAIGNS MAY NOT ENJOY IT.

"WAIT IT OUT" IS THE SECOND BEST OPTION.

I SUGGEST THAT BOTH CAN BE IMPLEMENTED AT ONCE EASILY WHILE NOT COMPLICATING THE GAME DEVELOPMENT.

JUST CREATE THE BASIS FOR THE "REINCARNATE" MODE. THEN ADD AN OPTION TO DISABLE MID-ROUND REINCARNATION WHICH WOULD TURN IT INTO "WAIT IT OUT" MODE. SINCE BOTH MODES INCLUDE THE OPTION TO TALK TO THE H.R. MANAGER TO BUY A NEW CHARACTER FOR THE DECEASED CREWMATE

[SnRk Hooj]

I voted "Reincarnate" as i always enjoyed the Singleplayer experience.

"Reincarnate" Could help keep all players more engaged. So, I do like that as an option for some campaigns. However, I think character customization is a nice touch especially in multiplayer. I think as another user Henry said, "reincarnate" could be fully implemented. However, I think for those who find it more immersive to create their own characters may still want to have a character of their own. It seems both "Reincarnate" and "Wait it out" could be implemented together, so players who do not like to spectate could potentially keep playing, while those who enjoy the feeling of having their own character, can still make their own person when the round is over.

As for an "Ironman" mode.. I would find it a much more compelling challenge than radiation. enabling radiation forces the player to make harder decisions because they have to keep moving. It also encourages the player to make the most of every round. However, this to me creates a speed run experience which I'm less a fan of. "Ironman" would allow players to play at any desired pace, while also forcing careful decision making and added pressure during each round. I think a version could be adopted to single player. Where the ship belongs solely to the captain. You are only ever given your starting captain and the captains death means the end of the run.

[The Flaming Pike]

Reincarnate: Not sure I'm for the idea because some people may not want their hard-earned bots to be hijacked by online randoms who would later leave the game, making the investment on bots in multiplayer quite costly in the long run, assuming the bots belong to those players once they take control of them. This could be good however if you are playing with friends only - people you know will come back and play with you again. If hosts could decide who gets to reincarnate and who doesn't, maybe it could work. I see some issues with it still, and some extra admin management that would be unwelcomed, at least for me. But for offline players, I see it can be interesting.

Create a new character: I like this one! We can already do it by exiting the game after dying and coming back. If this means a pop-up create-a-character window mid-session, I'm all for it.

Wait it out: If it costs money to respawn people in the outposts, what if half of your crew or more dies? This would eventually generate a pretty big bill in the long run... And also, what if you only have enough money to respawn a player when there's more out there waiting to come back? It seems to me some players will have to be very patient if this mode exists, and their patience may not always be rewarded...

I have my own suggestions that could add some spice to these new changes:

1) Cloning machine. It would make respawning more lore-friendly for any playstyle and could add interesting things too. If for example we made a clone with specific materials, the clone could have useful or funny abilities, similar to gene splicing. The medical level of the "creator" of the clone would have an impact on the efficiency of the clone. Clones could have different movement speed, endurance or melee damage depending on how - and with what -they were conceived. Basically, a fabricator for humans and instead of using money to "buy" them, we make them with materials. We could put dead bodies in the machine to gather materials used in the fabrication of a new clone. It could be an alternative to hiring people. Also, maybe I'm a maniac but I would like the ability to store explosives in a clone's head, so if they misbehave we can always press a button, wipe the floor and make a new one.

2) Respawning as a critter or other "lesser" creature. This is already done in Space Station 13. It could be a human/creature hybrid, android/robot, a pet ( granted with more abilities of course ), etc..

[Mr.Shady]

I have filled out the poll and from my perspective i will go for
"Reincarnate"
-
Whenever i think about the AI and bots. i question myself.

How much can i control them until i hit their non-conscious capacity?

Bots feel like extra fingers on your hands. they may seem useless if you don't know what they can offer you, but you start appreciating them, like cleaning up items or welding leaks, while your busy shooting the monsters. and even have skill tree like players do.

Suggestion:

i recommend having an permission from the host that allows fully controlling the bots, just like singleplayer does
-
while mid-way writing this, i double thought about the game mode "Ironman mode" and really its not that interesting on paper and wont be much on practice.
-
Barotrauma is a game where preparation truly matters for success. a good team is able to avoid death fairly well. Learning from you're mistakes is both a opportunity and a consequence that the game teaches you, after all we're not perfect.
being able to respawn should stay as an lobby option that the host may choose to enable whenever he feels like it.
yet i must say that having an "optional game-mode" where death is permanent and calling it a "challenge", is quite frankly boring, as for now that is until the developers change their mind.
i look at Terraria, surely its a different game, but me beginning to play as a hardcore character (perma-death) really shows how knowledgeable and professionally skilled i have become throughout the years. and it also awards you additional items after killing certain bosses or so i know.
I have also started to play Project Zomboid and its not far different from Barotrauma.
Project Zomboid also has skills and most importantly Occupation (Jobs)
If you die, its game over. losing all your skills that took so long to improve just by a single zombie bite.
just like barotrauma if you mess up not being prepared, mhm yep.
both games will give you the vibes to just: go home or git gud.
-
coming back to "Ironman mode". what would i improve if i were the game-designer?
Make death being punished but also rewarding with its consequences.
Well.... easier said then done but i think how the game works as it is now, is good enough in my books. we can already choose to have a respawn shuttle during rounds or not. It's Reincarnate that should be introduced in the next update and finitto. how it says and how it works on paper. yeah..
Thanks for reading my long opinion rant!

[JagdPanzer IV]

im just gonna say perma death is just another griefing tool just like logs

[LeeTuck]

I would say "Wait it out" or "Reincarnate" are the best options, with "Create a new character" being the easier option of WIO which is still a good option.

Ironman mode is a good idea in concept but I would stick to ironman only within a full party wipe, losing the save rather than forcing players to sit there for ages waiting for the lone captain to die; honestly after being a lone survivor as captain, I'd definitely see him retiring or rehiring a whole new crew. He could rehire bots but if players still had to sit there watching him recover, well he may as well be playing solo with how much time could pass.

[PapaMeKniven]

Definitely "Wait it out" with the option to "Create a new character". Basically you're left with 2 options: Continue as a randomised character with some skills or as a character of your choice without skills. Both joining the the crew at the next outpost and only if the the captain is willing to pay for it. "Ironman mode" = 👍

[Stravinsky]

i would like to see some new mechanic for iron- mod where we can sell submarines, so that we can have more money to replace dead crew. You could have options for money to have emergency rescue pod with uranium or or gaz for repair !

[Luminous Dark]

It seems like all three options could easily be implemented together, and would make for the best experience. If you are dead, you always have two options: Reincarnate by taking over a bot, or create a new character.

If you are on-mission, you can only make a new character if you have a shuttle available, not just pop in. If you're at a station, you can just appear with a new character.

If there are AI-controlled bots available, you can take them over at any time. If there aren't, then you wait until the captain recruits one, then you can take it over. Alternatively, the money you lose from dying could go into your "grave fund", which you can spend to buy a new character of your own. The captain could also use the ship's funds to respawn themself.

Ironman mode sounds absolutely horrible. I love ironman in single player games, but it's hard enough to get a crew of people together to play regularly. Imagine doing that, and then after a month of playing together every weekend, one of them dies and you just say, "Well, you're not playing anymore. We'll let you know when the rest of us die." In effect, ironman would just end up being if anyone dies, host presses Alt+F4.

You could incorporate a sort of ironman by just taking out the create new character option, so that you can only respawn by taking over or recruiting new bots. This would allow you to legitimately lose the game by getting into a downward spiral of not being able to make enough money to replace the people lost trying to make enough money to replace the people previously lost.

As a final note, for whatever change you choose, you need to make sure it doesn't apply to people who log off, get disconnected, or are idling mid-mission, because permanently losing your character because someone knocked on the door would not be fun at all.

[kratos]

Create a new character. But the host has a slider to choose how long (or if) a respawn takes.

For ironman mode have a button for the host. If 1 player character dies the whole crew has a heart attack and instantly dies. This button is very important as an addition to the absurdity.

Respawning as a pet might be fun in perma death for someone who would otherwise be stuck in spectator mode for the rest of the round or campaign. I don't expect them to be significantly more useful than pets already are. And there is a question of what to do when they die again.

[Buggy Boy]

I'd like to see three options available when creating or changing server settings -

Genuine Permadeath - the player's dead character is just gone, they can choose to rejoin as a new character as is currently an option. Upon death they are presented with a dialogue to make a new character or go to the lobby / main menu.

Reincarnation - as described in the post, they take control of a bot, but it is a RANDOM bot from those currently alive, they have no choice in the matter. They will gain the skills that the bot has and have an appropriate number of talent points to spend (that the bot has earned and not spent). Obviously if there are no bots available then they default to Genuine Permadeath, hard cheese.

Also, I think it would be good to have an option whereby players who join a server mid-round don't appear on the respawn shuttle, instead they would only appear at the recruitment office as I think someone already described. This should hopefully encourage teams to meet at a preset time and increase immersion, and maybe dissuade griefers from quickly hopping into campaign rounds to cause mischief.

On the subject of griefers, I think the host should have the ability to bring someone back from the dead, including bots, restored as they were at the time of death. It would be far too easy for a griefer to join a server, kill any bots, then go on their rampage knowing full well it's going to cause total devastation and probably destroy the campaign. Hosts need to be able to counter this (and if we're talking hardcore, they will likely want everything unlocked, no restrictions), if they want to abuse their power to bring someone back who was killed by accident, well that would be up to them, but I think the option needs to be there. Maybe don't allow it if the character was killed by fauna, but that kind of death could possibly still be caused by a determined or imaginative griefer.

I like the idea of dead players coming back as a pet or friendly monster, maybe they could roam the seas and confuse the enemy monsters! At the end of the round they could have the choice to rejoin as a new human according to whatever permadeath settings are in place, or stay as a pet. If they chose to join as a monster then that probably should only last for the current round, when the round ends then they go back to spectator mode, reincarnate mode, or whatever.

[Arcanus01134]

I feel like both Reincarnate as well as Wait it Out should be added, possibly as non-exclusive "modifiers" for the game. Waiting it out is basically just disabling mid-round respawn, while reincarnating changes the method of respawn. Permadeath would then also be a modifier of its own, disabling respawning with the same character.

[AveAves]

Ironman mode sounds like no one would be able to play it. The game requires large crews in all but the smallest 2 or 3 subs, and it's hard to gather players. It'd just turn into a 2player/singleplayer mode v quickly, then end abruptly.