Sunless Skies

Sunless Skies

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failbetterfuzz  [developer] Aug 28, 2018 @ 4:18am
Feedback Focus: Combat, part II
Sky-Captains!

It’s been a while since we’ve done one of these, but we’ve made some big changes to Agent behavior and armaments in the Combat II build and we're looking to gather feedback on how it feels as an experience.

Please take the time to read over the patch notes which includes the known issues[www.failbettergames.com] for the new features. Once you're aware of all the new features, load up the game and go on the hunt for some beasties. After you've gotten into a lot of fights around the high Wilderness we'd appreciate your thoughts.


What we are looking for
We want your experience of combat as it is now in the Combat II build. Below are some suggestions for the type of things you could tell us. Don't limit yourself to this list, it's a guide to give you a starting point, but please stay on topic.

  • How does combat feel? Tense, boring, fun, exciting?
  • What's been your favourite combat encounter so far?
  • What Agents do you like doing battle with and why?
  • What Agents do you try to avoid fighting and why?
  • Is combat too punishing or is it not punishing enough?
  • What locomotive and weapons are you using?
  • Are you able to strafe effectively to manage your combat encounters?
  • Are you using the wrath crescent in combination with your headlight to successfully avoid Agents?
  • Are you using the default control scheme for the keyboard/mouse?
  • How does combat feel when using a controller rather than the keyboard?
  • What are your favourite Agent weapons/attacks?
  • What are your favourite rewards from killing Agents?
  • What do you think of the knockback? Is it too much on certain weapons/Agent attacks)
  • On a typical run from a hub to a non-hub port and back, how many Agents do you tend to run into on average? Of those, how many do you engage?
  • Have you encountered any difficulty spikes (as a guide the inner circle of the Reach should be relatively easy with the outer ring containing tougher beasties. Albion should be tougher than the Reach, and Eleutheria should be tougher still.


What we are not looking for
  • Bugs - if you think you've found a bug that's not on the known issues[www.failbettergames.com] list then send details[www.failbettergames.com] to Skies@failbettergames.com.
  • Suggestions for unrelated features or ideas for new locomotive slots or engine upgrades/speed boosts, etc.
  • Requests for features that are on the way:
    • New and unique weapons
    • Arcing on player weapons
    • Combat difficulty settings
    • Agents losing wrath and not attacking the player when docked
    • Knockback on small asteroids and space debris - this is currently being considered and is not a definite confirmation
Last edited by failbetterfuzz; Aug 28, 2018 @ 4:18am
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Showing 1-15 of 15 comments
MadFlacc Aug 31, 2018 @ 4:39am 
So, just to be clear: even though on the development roadmap it says "new player weaponry," there are no new weapons yet?

If that's the case, when can we expect them?
BabyWentBonkers Aug 31, 2018 @ 6:51pm 
I enjoy the new combat, it makes combat require more strategy and skill instead of ramming your opponent's ship and using the unholy power of a shotgun.
failbetterfuzz  [developer] Sep 1, 2018 @ 12:06am 
Originally posted by MadFlacc:
So, just to be clear: even though on the development roadmap it says "new player weaponry," there are no new weapons yet?

If that's the case, when can we expect them?

There are no new player weapons in this build. The roadmap is only a guide as to what we are aiming for in that update, and we did't have time for to work on them in this update, though the roadmap should have been updated by now so I shall have that altered.

Rather than using the roadmap to see what's in each update you ideally need to use the patch notes once the update has gone live.
Originally posted by failbetterfuzz:
Originally posted by MadFlacc:
So, just to be clear: even though on the development roadmap it says "new player weaponry," there are no new weapons yet?

If that's the case, when can we expect them?

There are no new player weapons in this build. The roadmap is only a guide as to what we are aiming for in that update, and we did't have time for to work on them in this update, though the roadmap should have been updated by now so I shall have that altered.

Rather than using the roadmap to see what's in each update you ideally need to use the patch notes once the update has gone live.
can you guys please make condition reduction more accessable? As it stands it becomes a really unfun chore once your condition sinks past a certain point, so much so that it is easyer to just restart, mod the saves, or go back to sunless seas.

I dont want terror gone nor condition but you really should not have to fight the strongest ♥♥♥♥ in the game to reduce condition considering that is spikes up so damned fast and removes your stats PERMAMANTLY is just the biggest crock of ♥♥♥♥ in the game.
Love the game sans for perma stat reduction, would rather just have repeated mutiny attempts then watching my ♥♥♥♥ing stats dwindle away into zeros because a ♥♥♥♥ing ship doesnt want to ♥♥♥♥ing drop the thing I need to pay for ♥♥♥♥ing treatment.
Nyota Mwuaji Sep 5, 2018 @ 11:46pm 
seems a bit more difficult, the locomotives handle a lot differently than a zee ship. drifting all over the place and often i accidently side slip INTO enemy fire as opposed to out of the way.
I am a Box. Sep 17, 2018 @ 8:04am 
My only gripe with the combat is that agents, especially locomotives, just have a perfect lock on you at (almost) all times and move very irregularly when in combat. They appear to have no angular momentum when turning to face you, and when they move into a new position, it's like they're being pulled by some invisible force. It feels like they're attached to your ship by some rigid pole.
ShakespearOnIce Sep 27, 2018 @ 1:10pm 
How does combat feel?
Engaging and tense. It's very easy at later difficulties to get caught on the bad end of a salvo and while one mistake is never fatal on its own, you can feel them add up as you crawl between ports.

What's been your favorite combat encounter so far?
The first time I encountered an Undeparted was amazing.

What Agents do you like doing battle with and why?
I try to hunt down every Enduring Dreatnaught I see, mostly for the change at an Unlicensed Chart. Fighting Undeparted is good fun since they have an interesting form of attack. It's kinda fun when you have a chance to fight 2 or 3 reach marauders at once (at least later on), although the rewards are kinda worthless by that point. Curators are kinda easy to fight since they don't seem to use their sonic wave-type attack much, but the rewards are great so they're always worth fighting. I would like to do more combat with Guests, but just never see them.

What Agents do you try to avoid fighting and why?
Dousers without a doubt. They're dodgy as heck so fighting them is a chore, their shotgun attack does notable damage and isn't reliably avoidable like most other mobs, and they don't drop any rewards worth noting. I'll also avoid cantankeri after a few levels unless I have space for supplies and have a butchery on board.

Is combat too punishing or is it not punishing enough?
Punishment is an interesting way of putting it. I feel like if you get put into a bad position where you're likely to take damage you're probably going to take a lot, and depending on what vessel you're in and what enemy you're against that can either be a death sentence or a countdown - I can stomach maybe one or two bad fights before I'm too damaged to try engaging anything.

What locomotive and weapons are you using?
I'm using a Moloch-class liner with a Vala (18/750/25) and a Beulah (5/650/8). Not that it matters - the game really just comes down to shotgun vs cannon, and shotguns lack any ability to aim your damage and get it on target. The Moloch has the most balanced hull, cargo, and crew I've seen (less armor slots but higher base hull).

Are you able to strafe effectively to manage your combat encounters?
Against everything except enemies that use cannons. It's difficult to predict the spread, and unless you're facing them head-on and fairly distant it's near impossible to solidly dodge those.

Are you using the wrath crescent in combination with your headlight to successfully avoid Agents?
It doesn't really matter. Unless they're camped around a port you're trying to get at you can generally just kinda chug past them, they'll take a few shots and then give up.

Are you using the default control scheme for the keyboard/mouse?
Yes

What are your favourite Agent weapons/attacks?
The Sleeping Grievers are kinda cool, and the Undeparted also have a fun and challenging attack. Curators have the sonic wave thing that's interesting, but I hardly see them use it.

What are your favourite rewards from killing Agents?
Early game trade supplies are king, later game it's terror reductions. Especially since Elutheria all but does away with terror reduction in ports or spawns it's almost vital to a successful venture into the wilds.

What do you think of the knockback? Is it too much on certain weapons/Agent attacks)
I feel like it might be a tad high on the rapid fire attacks from dreadnaughts, but overall it seems pretty alright.

On a typical run from a hub to a non-hub port and back, how many Agents do you tend to run into on average? Of those, how many do you engage?
It honestly depends on pathing. Sometimes ports don't spawn in a loop conducive to hitting them in sequence without big empty gaps, and those big empty gaps tend to be... big and empty. There have been times where I've gone on a loop and seen one or two hostile ships, and there's time where I've done the same loop and seen eight or nine.

Have you encountered any difficulty spikes (as a guide the inner circle of the Reach should be relatively easy with the outer ring containing tougher beasties. Albion should be tougher than the Reach, and Eleutheria should be tougher still.)
Player skill is a kind of constant thing so I wouldn't call anything more difficult than anything else. It's mostly a matter of how long it takes me to kill an Agent and that time giving me more chances to make mistakes that cost damage/terror/fuel/supply. I was dodging fusillades from Enduring Dreadnaughts in The Reach, and I'm doing basically the same thing against greater scribe-scriveners in Elutheria. The only jumps and dips in difficult are when you acquire a new ship or reach a new threshhold of iron/mirrors/etc to unlock new equipment.
lux_aeternae Oct 5, 2018 @ 7:50am 
just a suggestion, but maybe it'd be better to make strafe keys (Q/E) dependant on your locomotive direction?
for instance, pretty often i hit Q, and going N i strafe left. but going S i go right. it's a bit confusing for me. or maybe add an option for switching it liek ON/OFF
amuys Oct 19, 2018 @ 7:33pm 
I really love the Glorious Dreadnought's attack since it's a massive bullet curtain. Looking forward to new types of danmaku as well! Homing types, lasers, temporary danger area attacks, the SKY is the limit!
wicked_fallen Oct 27, 2018 @ 7:47pm 
I don't like how it seems like enemies always spot you and once they do you usually can't outrun them, unlike in sunless seas which had that boost mechanic to get out of trouble
"The Canadian" Oct 28, 2018 @ 4:18pm 
Originally posted by wicked_fallen:
I don't like how it seems like enemies always spot you and once they do you usually can't outrun them, unlike in sunless seas which had that boost mechanic to get out of trouble

While I get where you're coming from, to a certain extent this makes sense because the skies wouldn't be dangerous if you could just outrun all your troubles. Yet if you navigated into the many abundant areas where you could place obstacles like asteroids between yourself and your pursuer? You'd find they'd quickly lose you - or even better allow you to turn the tables with little risk to yourself.

On a similar but reverse note, I always disliked that if I turned into a ship on the periphery of my screen and wanted to engage in combat with them, there was nothing I could do to catch up.

Enemies make no S-like direction changes or alter their speed in any way that would allow me to close the distance, which is weird for combat actors in a game and frustrating if they're a quest goal. This could be just an issue with non-aggro or neutral AI though.
Last edited by "The Canadian"; Oct 28, 2018 @ 4:19pm
amuys Oct 28, 2018 @ 4:32pm 
Originally posted by wicked_fallen:
I don't like how it seems like enemies always spot you and once they do you usually can't outrun them, unlike in sunless seas which had that boost mechanic to get out of trouble
Really? I find most of the enemies to be rather easy to out manuever. Especially if you use lateral jets.
failbetterfuzz  [developer] Nov 6, 2018 @ 5:27am 
Originally posted by wicked_fallen:
I don't like how it seems like enemies always spot you and once they do you usually can't outrun them, unlike in sunless seas which had that boost mechanic to get out of trouble

Hiya. Please make sure you're on the most recent build. As of the Combat II update agents always return to their home zone where they spawn when they move out of a certain distance from it. No one should be seeing relentless pursuing across the skies.
failbetterfuzz  [developer] Nov 6, 2018 @ 5:27am 
Thanks for all the feedback folks, I'm unpinning this now but everyone is free to continue posting their thoughts and experiences on combat here. Cheers.
failbetterfuzz  [developer] Nov 12, 2018 @ 3:11am 
Adding a link to Sanglaine's thread so that we don't miss it.
Combat 2.0 Feedback
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Date Posted: Aug 28, 2018 @ 4:18am
Posts: 15